Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

[Xix2565]

Wasnt Ambrose the latter though 95 onwards?

Not really? He wasn't bowling long spells that often since then. Or at the very least didn't end up bowling a lot of his team's share to merit the consideration, especially from 98 onwards.

 

[_00_deathscar]

So saying that SA had the most pace-friendly wickets of the era is nonsense, then? It was the one place where teams might be expected to be rolled out for double digits, i don't recall any other place like that.

And yet, that great Graeme Smith team couldn’t win every game at home.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Again, never disagreed with your contention about how 30-33 avge bowlers would have been 27-30 instead etc. I don't think anyone did. I was purely focusing on the ATG sort of bracket given what we're discussing. If we're talking about only the best 5 or so fast bowlers in the world it's very fair to say that it got "empirically worse" for that period IMO.

In the end yes you are correct, but can the fact that it happened be down to a stroke of weird luck? Shoaib Akhtar and Shane Bond in another era with a good fitness record (or even in their own era with a good fitness record) would probably have gone down as good level ATGs. They’re the two strongest contenders, then there’s the match fixing lot.

Sort of like if the CEO pitch era had continued, and Bumrah suddenly got permacrocked after the West Indies series or something - we’ll never truly know as they never truly got a chance to prove or disprove it.

 

[TheJediBrah]

In the end yes you are correct, but can the fact that it happened be down to a stroke of weird luck? Shoaib Akhtar and Shane Bond in another era with a good fitness record (or even in their own era with a good fitness record) would probably have gone down as good level ATGs. They’re the two strongest contenders, then there’s the match fixing lot.

Sort of like if the CEO pitch era had continued, and Bumrah suddenly got permacrocked after the West Indies series or something - we’ll never truly know as they never truly got a chance to prove or disprove it.

It's not "weird" luck though. As both me and Starfighter explained earlier, this is a group of a couple dozen fast bowlers at this level and this kind of variation is not particularly unusual in such a small group.

 

[_00_deathscar]

If the tough pitches of the 2000s stopped ATGs from developing, why is it that WI and Pakistan haven't produced an ATG-level bowlers since the late 80s?

The last ATGs to come from these countries was Ambrose in 88 and Waqar in 89. Guys like Bishop and Shoaib basically broke down. So why couldnt they produce ATGs in the 90s despite the good pitches? How come they haven't produced an ATG in over 30 years?

They did - they produced potential ATG level bowlers since then but none who reached actual ATG status because they broke down (or other reasons). Isn’t that kind of the point?

The number of potential ATG level bowlers nevermind those who actually get to that level is so low it just takes 1 to be a permacrock and suddenly you don’t have an ATG.

 

[_00_deathscar]

It's not "weird" luck though. As both me and Starfighter explained earlier, this is a group of a couple dozen fast bowlers at this level and this kind of variation is not particularly unusual in such a small group.

I explained it again in my latest post. The number of potential ATG level bowlers is so low, nevermind those who actually get there, that it just takes a couple of them being regularly injured and suddenly you don’t have any for the era.

In the little they did show, Bond and Shoaib showed they could have gotten there. But ultimately didn’t. That’s 2.

That’s taking Cummins and Bumrah out of the equation, and you’re just left with Rabada.

To be clear im contesting the fact that there were no ATG level bowlers in the era. None REACHED that status who debuted around then (apart from Steyn), but a couple showed enough promise (and Shoaib did play a decent ish amount of matches). But they were taken out of the equation due to injury.

I do agree there wasn’t the same overall level.
But you could argue the current lot aren’t the same as 90s either but the overall stocks are far, far better than ever before and that’s not just down to pitches solely. They’re just better bowlers than the average guys from before.

I’m not arguing that there have to be 5-10 or any X number of great bowlers per decade. I’m just saying that there was clearly only the 1 that debuted in approximately that era, but 2 others showed enough promise too but were taken out of the equation. So it wasn’t like the era was devoid of ATG bowlers - it was devoid of ones that reached the level eventually. There were ATG level/potential ATG bowlers.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I explained it again in my latest post. The number of potential ATG level bowlers is so low, nevermind those who actually get there, that it just takes a couple of them being regularly injured and suddenly you don’t have any for the era.

In the little they did show, Bond and Shoaib showed they could have gotten there. But ultimately didn’t. That’s 2.

That’s taking Cummins and Bumrah out of the equation, and you’re just left with Rabada.

To be clear im contesting the fact that there were no ATG level bowlers in the era. None REACHED that status who debuted around then (apart from Steyn), but a couple showed enough promise (and Shoaib did play a decent ish amount of matches). But they were taken out of the equation due to injury.

I do agree there wasn’t the same overall level.
But you could argue the current lot aren’t the same as 90s either but the overall stocks are far, far better than ever before and that’s not just down to pitches solely. They’re just better bowlers than the average guys from before.

I’m not arguing that there have to be 5-10 or any X number of great bowlers per decade. I’m just saying that there was clearly only the 1 that debuted in approximately that era, but 2 others showed enough promise too but were taken out of the equation. So it wasn’t like the era was devoid of ATG bowlers - it was devoid of ones that reached the level eventually. There were ATG level/potential ATG bowlers.

Yeah I see what you're saying, but fitness is just as much a part of being a great bowler, or any sportsman, as skill level. Bond, Shoaib, Harris etc. all being highly skilled but unable to stay on the park doesn't change that in the previous decade there were more bowlers of a similar skill level who could stay on the park. Or at least moreso than those guys.

 

[subshakerz]

They did - they produced potential ATG level bowlers since then but none who reached actual ATG status because they broke down (or other reasons). Isn’t that kind of the point?

The number of potential ATG level bowlers nevermind those who actually get to that level is so low it just takes 1 to be a permacrock and suddenly you don’t have an ATG.

You are basically agreeing with my point.

Except you need to acknowledge that WI and Pakistan could produce 7-8 bowlers in the 70s/80s who eventually reached ATG status with long careers and then not a single one debuting from 90 onwards. The reason they didnt has nothing to do with flat pitches.

In WI's case, the last worldclass bowler they had was Ian Bishop who debuted in 89. In Pakistan's case, all the worldclass bowlers Shoaib onwards lacked the mentorship, fitness and support and ended up shortcircuiting.

 

[subshakerz]

And yet, that great Graeme Smith team couldn’t win every game at home.

The games he lost have much to do with the opposition bowlers enjoying the conditions and running through the SA batting lineup.

 

[srbhkshk]

Yeah I see what you're saying, but fitness is just as much a part of being a great bowler, or any sportsman, as skill level. Bond, Shoaib, Harris etc. all being highly skilled but unable to stay on the park doesn't change that in the previous decade there were more bowlers of a similar skill level who could stay on the park. Or at least moreso than those guys.

How long you can stay injury free is as much a function of the kind of pitches you bowl in as any innate fitness levels you naturally have.

 

[subshakerz]

How long you can stay injury free is as much a function of the kind of pitches you bowl in as any innate fitness levels you naturally have.

I don't think Shoaib and Bond broke down because of the pitches though.

 

[subshakerz]

The number of potential ATG level bowlers nevermind those who actually get to that level is so low it just takes 1 to be a permacrock and suddenly you don’t have an ATG.

In WI's case, it is pretty clear their ATG pace supply just ran out.

In the 70s/80s, you had Roberts, Holding, Garner, Croft, Marshall, Walsh, Clarke, Ambrose, and Bishop debut.
90s onwards, nobody worldclass debuted and its been 30 years we are waiting.

 

[TheJediBrah]

How long you can stay injury free is as much a function of the kind of pitches you bowl in as any innate fitness levels you naturally have.

That's not even a tiny bit true

 

[srbhkshk]

That's not even a tiny bit true

lmao what?

 

[Slifer]

As a West Indian the talent is there but there just isn't the pride and work ethic of yesteryear. Think of the Marshalls, Holding, Garners etc who played cricket not to make money but for pride. Marshall for example used to put weights on his legs and run for hours strengthen them so he could be stronger and bowl longer.

Nowadays our bowlers and cricketers in general don't have that same pride anymore. Added to the fact , that let's be honest, as a group of poorer countries, the WI simply lacks the financial resource to invest its cricketers like other nations. We got away with this in the 80s and 90s because of pride, talent and just pure determination. In the this age of technology, nutrition, etc that won't cut it anymore.

I have high hopes for Jayden Seales, hopefully he puts in the work and gets the support from the WIcB and his team mates.

 

[Slifer]

With all that being said, Holder and Roach are at least decent fast bowlers. They aren't world class or great simply because they completely suck outside the Caribbean. I honestly don't really know what that's down to. I know back in the day, West Indians used to play extensively in county cricket and some even played in South Africa etc. Maybe the WI could invest more in A team tours or try to have more players play first class outside the Caribbean.

The pitches in the wi aren't really the issue. The curators quite frankly, can prepare pitches according to the needs of the team.

 

[Starfighter]

lmao what?

How abut offering the teensiest bit of evidence that it is then?

 

[TheJediBrah]

lmao what?

Your statement was utterly ridiculous. In practice a bowler's body (and bowling action) is far more influential to their injury history and risk than the pitches they bowl on. It's not even close.

Unless you're comparing 2 fantasy bowlers where one bowls on concrete and the other bowls on marshmallow . . .

 

[ataraxia]

On flat pitches one bowls more overs hence is more likely to get injured

 

[TheJediBrah]

On flat pitches one bowls more overs hence is more likely to get injured

I don't think that's in dispute