When did the 'great' West Indies team(s) stop being great?

[Slifer]

Yes and No. Imran, Wasim, Waqar and Hadlee represented the type of pace WI were least comfortable with. Swing, pace, up to the bat and in Hadlee's case, patient too. That is one reason Pakistan was so successful against WI. Adding Saqlain in to it would have increased their chances in 3 + 1 = 5 manner. Imran, Wasim and Waqar were never holding bowlers. So was Qadir. Saqlain fills up that requirement brilliantly.

Why stop there? Let's add peak Lara and Kallicharan to the WI lineup. This is so dumb. You add any decent player to an already competent team (assuming nothing else changes) of course results might differ. Fwiw WI drew in Pakistan in 1990 without Viv vs Waqar (pre injury), Wasim, Imran, Mustaq and Qadir. If they can withstand that, they can withstand most anything.

 

[honestbharani]

Dan Vettori will absolutely not be a factor against any competent batting line up, let alone 80s West Indies. Whilst we're on the subject of putting in too much stock in one incredible fluke from a part timer, I'm surprised no one mentioned Clarke's 6/9 against the best ever spin playing batting order as a counterpoint.

The fact that you diss Border as well as put him at the same level as Clarke, is remarkable. Underrated post.

 

[Migara]

Why stop there? Let's add peak Lara and Kallicharan to the WI lineup. This is so dumb. You add any decent player to an already competent team (assuming nothing else changes) of course results might differ. Fwiw WI drew in Pakistan in 1990 without Viv vs Waqar (pre injury), Wasim, Imran, Mustaq and Qadir. If they can withstand that, they can withstand most anything.

It basically defeats the whole purpose, and daft too. Unless you are delirious or sorts we were discussing what happened if 95 - 2005 era spinners were present in 80s sides. If you want to add 90s or 70s batsmen to mix, yes go ahead and do it and we can discuss Ponting vs Marshall or Tendulkar vs Holding debates.

WI did drew with Pakistan and lets examine the bowling attack.
Waqar was at his peak.
Wasim was very very good
Imran almost ended his career. Bowled only 9 overs in test matches following that match. Only bowled in a single match.
Mustaq Ahmed played only a single match. He only had experience of a single test match before that.
Abdul Qadir played only two matches. And it was his last and was already in terminal decline.
Akram Raza played a single match with experience of a single test match
Masood Anwar debuted and played only that match.

It is ridiculous to claim WI with all their superstars bar Viv being able to "draw" the series. It was by far the worst spin attack great WI side faced from Pakistan. They should have smashed this bowling attack, given the inexperience and lack of form, and still averaged 40 against them picking 11 wickets in the series. It adds nothing by quoting that series that WI played spin well.

 

[Slifer]

It basically defeats the whole purpose, and daft too. Unless you are delirious or sorts we were discussing what happened if 95 - 2005 era spinners were present in 80s sides. If you want to add 90s or 70s batsmen to mix, yes go ahead and do it and we can discuss Ponting vs Marshall or Tendulkar vs Holding debates.

WI did drew with Pakistan and lets examine the bowling attack.
Waqar was at his peak.
Wasim was very very good
Imran almost ended his career. Bowled only 9 overs in test matches following that match. Only bowled in a single match.
Mustaq Ahmed played only a single match. He only had experience of a single test match before that.
Abdul Qadir played only two matches. And it was his last and was already in terminal decline.
Akram Raza played a single match with experience of a single test match
Masood Anwar debuted and played only that match.

It is ridiculous to claim WI with all their superstars bar Viv being able to "draw" the series. It was by far the worst spin attack great WI side faced from Pakistan. They should have smashed this bowling attack, given the inexperience and lack of form, and still averaged 40 against them picking 11 wickets in the series. It adds nothing by quoting that series that WI played spin well.

Lol they should have smashed this attack? Are you high? Seriously. With the likes of Logie, Carlisle Best and Hooper. You literally earlier said WI were vulnerable to swing at high pace.

That 90s series shows in case you missed it, that inspite of facing an all time great attack WI still found a way to draw the series and almost win it. Why? Because no matter the short comings of their batting, they had the bowlers to fight fire with fire.

In '86, when WI got bundled for 53, and people were saying wi was dusted. What happened? WI annihilated Pakistan in the very next test. Note that this series was played without either Holding, Garner or Lloyd. And Wi were on the verge of victory in the 3rd until... Pakistani fans like to bring up '88 and the horrid wi umpiring (partly true admittedly) but theres were no better. Anyway my point? No matter what the batsmen did, wi bowlers kept them in the game and more often than not got them over the line.

 

[Migara]

Lol they should have smashed this attack? Are you high? Seriously. With the likes of Logie, Carlisle Best and Hooper. You literally earlier said WI were vulnerable to swing at high pace.

Exactly. That is why Wasim and Waqar wrecked havoc. Some decent spinners in form would have easily got another win. Seriously, what are you talking about?

That 90s series shows in case you missed it, that inspite of facing an all time great attack WI still found a way to draw the series and almost win it. Why? Because no matter the short comings of their batting, they had the bowlers to fight fire with fire.

It was not an ATG attack, and I have given reasons if you have missed it. Spin attack was extremely poor. No way it was an ATG attack. It was probably the weakest Pakistan managed to field from mid 80s up to 2000, in all round ability.

In '86, when WI got bundled for 53, and people were saying wi was dusted. What happened? WI annihilated Pakistan in the very next test. And were on the verge of victory in the 3rd . My point? No matter what the batsmen did, wi bowlers kept them in the game and more often than not got them over the line.

Once again irrelevant trivia. WI bowlers were good, but bowlers need targets to bowl at. Even that WI attack would defend sub par scores day and day out. My point, West Indies didn't manage to win regularly against Pakistan, even with that fabulous attack. Another ATG spinner for Pakistan, even that fabulous attack would have had defendind lower targets.

 

[pardus]

Lol they should have smashed this attack? Are you high? Seriously. With the likes of Logie, Carlisle Best and Hooper. You literally earlier said WI were vulnerable to swing at high pace.

That 90s series shows in case you missed it, that inspite of facing an all time great attack WI still found a way to draw the series and almost win it. Why? Because no matter the short comings of their batting, they had the bowlers to fight fire with fire.

In '86, when WI got bundled for 53, and people were saying wi was dusted. What happened? WI annihilated Pakistan in the very next test. And were on the verge of victory in the 3rd . My point? No matter what the batsmen did, wi bowlers kept them in the game and more often than not got them over the line.

I don't think West Indies were close to winning the last Test in the 90-91 series. It was a dead 5th day wicket with nothing in it for West Indian pace bowlers. Unless one knew how to reverse swing at high pace (which then West Indian bowlers didn't), they posed little threat to batsmen on that 5th day wicket. Pak still had 4 wickets left (with Imran, Wasim & Mojn among them).
And back then, batsmen batted time more easily than today's batsmen, so it wasn't like West Indies almost won the match.

BTW it was Lara's debut Test, and he played a very very important role in his debut innings.
West Indies were tottering at some 30-odd with 3 wickets down, when Lara joined Hooper and resurrected the West Indian innings with an almost 100 run partnership.
Hooper still rates that as his best innings ever because of Waqar's sheer pace & reverse swing. Hooper mentions he has never seen such swing before or after in a cricket match (and he pretty much insinuates ball-tampering by Pakistani fast bowlers which Pakistani umpires ignored).

Now second Test match in Trinidad in their 1988 series, which was also drawn - that was a match you could say West Indies almost won (Pak were 9 wickets down in their second innings at the end of that Test match). If Windies had managed to take the last wicket, they would have won. But then Pak too were just 30 runs away from successfully chasing down the required runs (given that it was a 5th day pitch - and an old ball).
In this match, Pak had issues with the Umpiring, because several close lbw appeals against Viv were turned down, and he went on to hit a crucial century.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

So if I interpret all this correctly the answer to the OP is last Thursday.

 

[andruid]

I'm going to be chuckling at the "80s WI would have been in trouble if they had to face Vettori" for a while

It reminds me of that dude who briefly showed up on here to blow a fuse about how Bradman would never have withstood a spinner like Sehwag, but to a lesser scale.

 

[bagapath]

Border and Holland, who were pedestrian spinners, succeeding against West Indies in dead matches after the series is won proves nothing. Even the greatest batting lineup against spin bowling could crumble against Michael Clarke's left arm spin if the pitch played havoc.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Border and Holland, who were pedestrian spinners, succeeding against West Indies in dead matches after the series is won proves nothing. Even the greatest batting lineup against spin bowling could crumble against Michael Clarke's left arm spin if the pitch played havoc.

This is why "India collapsed to part time spinners" isn't an argument. When your wickets are that conducive to spin (and yes, sometimes doctored into dustbowls like the Clarke 6/9) it's going to happen regardless of how good your batsmen are

 

[Xix2565]

To be fair that applies to pacers as well.

 

[subshakerz]

Lol they should have smashed this attack? Are you high? Seriously. With the likes of Logie, Carlisle Best and Hooper. You literally earlier said WI were vulnerable to swing at high pace.

That 90s series shows in case you missed it, that inspite of facing an all time great attack WI still found a way to draw the series and almost win it. Why? Because no matter the short comings of their batting, they had the bowlers to fight fire with fire.

In '86, when WI got bundled for 53, and people were saying wi was dusted. What happened? WI annihilated Pakistan in the very next test. Note that this series was played without either Holding, Garner or Lloyd. And Wi were on the verge of victory in the 3rd until... Pakistani fans like to bring up '88 and the horrid wi umpiring (partly true admittedly) but theres were no better. Anyway my point? No matter what the batsmen did, wi bowlers kept them in the game and more often than not got them over the line.

86 was the first series that Imran had neutral umpires in.

 

[subshakerz]

Once again irrelevant trivia. WI bowlers were good, but bowlers need targets to bowl at. Even that WI attack would defend sub par scores day and day out. My point, West Indies didn't manage to win regularly against Pakistan, even with that fabulous attack. Another ATG spinner for Pakistan, even that fabulous attack would have had defendind lower targets.

Qadir at home in the 80s was a worldclass level threat and better than Saqlain.

WI not only faced him in Pakistan but peak Imran too and won one series and drew the other.

 

[Flem274*]

Vettori against the 80s WI would look a lot like Vettori against 00s Aus, but with a much better attack with him. He would bowl well and do his job but not be the main man unless WI didn't figure out to shelve the aerial shots. Vettori was often the main man by default, but far better in a support role to someone actually good like Bond or Cairns.

Man those 00s spinners would love the current era with actual pitch variation and DRS, and it was already a golden era of spinners.

 

[Slifer]

Qadir at home in the 80s was a worldclass level threat and better than Saqlain.

WI not only faced him in Pakistan but peak Imran too and won one series and drew the other.

And Iqbal Qasim. A very good left arm orthodox spinner.

 

[Migara]

Qadir at home in the 80s was a worldclass level threat and better than Saqlain.

WI not only faced him in Pakistan but peak Imran too and won one series and drew the other.

But in the said series both were only a shadow of themselves.

 

[Migara]

Vettori against the 80s WI would look a lot like Vettori against 00s Aus, but with a much better attack with him. He would bowl well and do his job but not be the main man unless WI didn't figure out to shelve the aerial shots. Vettori was often the main man by default, but far better in a support role to someone actually good like Bond or Cairns.

Man those 00s spinners would love the current era with actual pitch variation and DRS, and it was already a golden era of spinners.

And that much better attack has Hadlee. No simple deal.

 

[subshakerz]

But in the said series both were only a shadow of themselves.

In 86, WI without LLoyd faced peak Qadir and Imran as well as Wasim, and nearly won that series. That was worldclass swing and spin, as good as an attack as you can expect. There should be no question marks on their ability.

 

[jayjay]

In 86, WI without LLoyd faced peak Qadir and Imran as well as Wasim, and nearly won that series. That was worldclass swing and spin, as good as an attack as you can expect. There should be no question marks on their ability.

Agreed! All this talk of "well if there was spin, WI wouldn't be good enough" is nonsense.

The group of players who played across the late 70s and 80s would have been great regardless.

 

[bagapath]

This is why "India collapsed to part time spinners" isn't an argument. When your wickets are that conducive to spin (and yes, sometimes doctored into dustbowls like the Clarke 6/9) it's going to happen regardless of how good your batsmen are

india did collapse to a part time spinner. **** happens dude. it is not the norm though. same **** happened for West Indies with border and holland. doesn't prove anything,