When did the 'great' West Indies team(s) stop being great?

[Slifer]

Warne played only 2 series in the West Indies. He failed in the 1999 series but he was the second highest wicket taker for Australia in 94-95 series (just 2 behind McGrath) against a team which had Lara, Hooper and Richardson. To claim that he would be able to do nothing against West Indies of the 80s in the Caribbean is a bit extreme. I don’t think it is necessary to counter one extreme viewpoint with another.

Nevertheless it is fascinating to imagine Waugh’s Aussies at their peak with McGrath, Warne, Gillespie and Lee taking on Lloyd’s or Richards’s Windies of the 80s.

I never said he wouldn't do anything, I said he wouldn't destroy them on a regular basis like a certain other poster is claiming.

 

[Slifer]

Warne played only 2 series in the West Indies. He failed in the 1999 series but he was the second highest wicket taker for Australia in 94-95 series (just 2 behind McGrath) against a team which had Lara, Hooper and Richardson. To claim that he would be able to do nothing against West Indies of the 80s in the Caribbean is a bit extreme. I don’t think it is necessary to counter one extreme viewpoint with another.

Nevertheless it is fascinating to imagine Waugh’s Aussies at their peak with McGrath, Warne, Gillespie and Lee taking on Lloyd’s or Richards’s Windies of the 80s.

"West Indies even at their peak would have got devastated by yop class spin bowler like Murali or Warne."

"80s simple did not have good spinners. 90s produced Kumble, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq, Saqlain."

"Pakistan Saqlain instead of Qadir (or playing both) would have demolished West Indies"

This is what I'm responding to:

A. That there were no good spinners during the WI reign. Which is false since wi played Qasim chandra, Underwood, mallet, Prassana etc.
B. That WI would've been demolished, utter bs.

 

[bagapath]

I was trying to build a touring squad of 16 that would enable one to re-build the great West Indies teams under Clive Lloyd and Vivian Richards.

In the squad, I wanted three openers, a backup keeper and enough bowlers to rotate, besides having middle order bats for the right slots. I ended up with the following selection.

Openers (3): Roy Fredericks, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes,
Middle Order (5): Clive Lloyd, Alvin Kallicharan, Viv Richards, Larry Gomes, Richie Richardson.
Wicket Keepers (2): Deryck Murrey, Jeff Dujon.
Bowlers (6): Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Malcolm Marshall, Courtney Walsh, Curtley Ambrose.

Besides being the obvious choices from a fan's pov, they also occupy 16 of the top 17 slots of players who played under the two skippers. So I guess my opinion is not far off the mark.

Logie is the one who played a lot under them but didn't make the cut (comes at no 11). The next five players on the list from 18 to 22 are Hooper, Croft, Patterson, Harper and Rowe.

Using these twenty two I chose a possible XI that could have played together, and the left over XI looks like a decent out fit.

Team 1

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Gomes
Lloyd
Dujon +
Marshall
Holding
Roberts
Croft
Garner

Team 2

Fredericks
Rowe
Richardson
Kallicharan
Hooper
Logie
Murray +
Harper
Ambrose
Patterson
Walsh

 

[TheJediBrah]

They likely would have had issues especially in SL and Australia respectively. But in the WI, that's doubtful. But what Migara is trying to troll and say, is that WI would've lost to 80s Australia and SL had they had those two to call on. That's bs.

Any Sri Lankan team in history would be annihilated by 80s WI. They could have had 4 murali's in their team and a Sri Lankan ATG batting line-up and still lose by an innings. Imagine Jayawardene trying to face WI quicks lmao

Migara is just being Migara

 

[Shady Slim]

ah glad to see i've wandered into the thread How Would The Great West Indies Teams Have Fared Against Great Spinners rather than the thread When Did The Great West Indies Teams Stop Being Great

 

[Xix2565]

ah glad to see i've wandered into the thread How Would The Great West Indies Teams Have Fared Against Great Spinners rather than the thread When Did The Great West Indies Teams Stop Being Great

Actually would be a decent thread by itself.

 

[subshakerz]

Thanks.

Fun fact: A innocous left arm spinner named Venkathapathy Raju, made the best player of spin from West Indies in that era his bitch in that series. Lara never failed against a spinner to the extend he failed against Raju.

West Indies drew the series only due to unbelievable pad play from Jimmy Adams and and Indian collapse. Not once they manage to dominate Indian bowling. It was painful grinding of bowlers by Adams most of the time. And none of the pitches were dust bowls.

Pakistan would have been in much better position with Saqlain. Qadir was ordinary.

Qadir at home was at least as good as Saqlain.

WI would have definitely been more challenged if they faced the nineties era spin but the idea they would routinely collapse is ridiculous. Especially a team with Lloyd and Kallicharran who were all fine players of spin as well as Richards.

The WI beat India in India in the 70s at the time of their spin quartet.

 

[Migara]

Qadir at home was at least as good as Saqlain.

WI would have definitely been more challenged if they faced the nineties era spin but the idea they would routinely collapse is ridiculous. Especially a team with Lloyd and Kallicharran who were all fine players of spin as well as Richards.

The WI beat India in India in the 70s at the time of their spin quartet.

No one says that WI will collapse day and day out against spin. The idea is they will collapse fair few times more against 90s spin. And almost all teams barring NZ, SL and IND had very good pace bowlers in 90s (SL had Vaas, IND had Srinath, but that was few years in 90s). So if you sport 90s teams against WI, they will surely win less number of matches. AUS, PAK and SAF will give a run for their money. IND and SL would be extremely competitive at home.

And Yes, Qadir could be even better than Saqlain when he is on song. That is the possibility I raised, instead of Qasim, Sajjad or Arshad Khan, Saqlain bowling in tandem with Qadir. That will give a lot of control on scoring from Saqlain for the perpetual attack of Qadir.

 

[TheJediBrah]

No one says that WI will collapse day and day out against spin. The idea is they will collapse fair few times more against 90s spin. And almost all teams barring NZ, SL and IND had very good pace bowlers in 90s (SL had Vaas, IND had Srinath, but that was few years in 90s). So if you sport 90s teams against WI, they will surely win less number of matches. AUS, PAK and SAF will give a run for their money. IND and SL would be extremely competitive at home.

And Yes, Qadir could be even better than Saqlain when he is on song. That is the possibility I raised, instead of Qasim, Sajjad or Arshad Khan, Saqlain bowling in tandem with Qadir. That will give a lot of control on scoring from Saqlain for the perpetual attack of Qadir.

This is a fair suggestion. Better yet making the WI team abide by modern over-rate rules would change things.

 

[Bahnz]

Croft should've been banned for a few matches as should Holding for kicking over the stumps, and Lloyd for going off the field and not controlling his players. They underestimated NZ, were missing Viv (injured) from that tour, and lost the plot.

The best part of that tour was when the all conquering WI got hammered by Wellington in a game were Chats picked up 13 wickets.

 

[Bahnz]

Bumping into someone is not an assault. You're clearly biased if you think even an amateur can't see blatant edge 20 yards down.

Lol, as if we don’t see awful decisions by full time professional umpires on a weekly basis.

 

[Starfighter]

The best part of that tour was when the all conquering WI got hammered by Wellington in a game were Chats picked up 13 wickets.

I'm guessing that game must have been played on one of those pitches that is invisible from a distance.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1970S/1979-80/WI_IN_NZ/WI_WELL_16-18FEB1980.html

 

[Fuller Pilch]

NZ also beat the Windies in the 1 ODI the 2 teams played.

 

[Slifer]

ah glad to see i've wandered into the thread How Would The Great West Indies Teams Have Fared Against Great Spinners rather than the thread When Did The Great West Indies Teams Stop Being Great

Lmao

 

[Slifer]

I was trying to build a touring squad of 16 that would enable one to re-build the great West Indies teams under Clive Lloyd and Vivian Richards.

In the squad, I wanted three openers, a backup keeper and enough bowlers to rotate, besides having middle order bats for the right slots. I ended up with the following selection.

Openers (3): Roy Fredericks, Gordon Greenidge, Desmond Haynes,
Middle Order (5): Clive Lloyd, Alvin Kallicharan, Viv Richards, Larry Gomes, Richie Richardson.
Wicket Keepers (2): Deryck Murrey, Jeff Dujon.
Bowlers (6): Andy Roberts, Michael Holding, Joel Garner, Malcolm Marshall, Courtney Walsh, Curtley Ambrose.

Besides being the obvious choices from a fan's pov, they also occupy 16 of the top 17 slots of players who played under the two skippers. So I guess my opinion is not far off the mark.

Logie is the one who played a lot under them but didn't make the cut (comes at no 11). The next five players on the list from 18 to 22 are Hooper, Croft, Patterson, Harper and Rowe.

Using these twenty two I chose a possible XI that could have played together, and the left over XI looks like a decent out fit.

Team 1

Greenidge
Haynes
Richards
Gomes
Lloyd
Dujon +
Marshall
Holding
Roberts
Croft
Garner

Team 2

Fredericks
Rowe
Richardson
Kallicharan
Hooper
Logie
Murray +
Harper
Ambrose
Patterson
Walsh

Umm Ian Bishop??

 

[Slifer]

This is a fair suggestion. Better yet making the WI team abide by modern over-rate rules would change things.

Ok. Then in the same vein, place modern Australia from the early 2000s in 80s conditions and push the boundaries back, no bouncer limits and most importantly get rid of helmets....I'm trolling fwiw

 

[Prince EWS]

I'm guessing that game must have been played on one of those pitches that is invisible from a distance.

http://static.espncricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1970S/1979-80/WI_IN_NZ/WI_WELL_16-18FEB1980.html

Match-losing spells from one of history's most over-rated bowlers Michael Holding there.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Everyone forgets Derick Parry.

 

[Slifer]

How about we play this fun little game, use peak WI from the 80s and have them replace the WI in the series they played in the 90s:

Nz '95 (a) and 96: still wins for the WI by an even wider margin.

Ind '94 (a) and '97 : WI drew in India in '94 with half their team missing, therefore a full strength 80s team would likely win. '97 yeah 80s WI are easily winning that.

Pak: '90 (a), '93, '97 (a): '90 was at the end of the WI dynasty and they drew. That 90 Pakistan attack had qadir, mustaq, pre injury Waqar and wasim and imran occasionally; an exceptional attack. Wi had no Viv yet they drew. Peak WI would likely do the same. Ditto to the away series in '97. '93 in the wi Pakistan were brushed aside so there you go.

RSA '98 (a): no way the WI from the 80s get swept, that's laughable. Wi lost mostly because their batting was woeful. The team of the 80s seeing that RSA has no decent spinner in site would likely do much much better. Probably mirror how Australia faired in Rsa and either edge by one test or draw the series.

SL: '97: wider margin of victory by the WI. Wi only played a one off test away in the 90s and that ended in a draw.

Eng: '90, '91 (a), 94, '95 (a), '98: WI win every last one of those series by at least two tests. As a matter of fact, WI don't lose a single test at home.

Aus: '91, 93 (a), 95, 97 (a), '99: WI win in 91 and 93 by wider margins. They edge the 95 series at home. Ditto the series in 97 in Australia. '99 in the Caribbean, yeah another WI win.

About the only chances peak WI of the 80s have at a loss would probably be away to Pakistan in 97. That's it. Don't see them losing any of the series of we swap then out for their 90s counterparts. Note we said peak WI ie the team comprising:

Greenidge
Haynes
Richardson
Viv
Gomes
Lloyd*
Dujon+
Marshall
Holding
Garner
Walsh

 

[trundler]

Ok. Then in the same vein, place modern Australia from the early 2000s in 80s conditions and push the boundaries back, no bouncer limits and most importantly get rid of helmets....I'm trolling fwiw

Saying you're trolling when you're trolling is very weak. Lay your bait like a man.