When did the 'great' West Indies team(s) stop being great?

[Slifer]

WI toured SL for the first time in 1993. Other than for Lara and Hooper, even the greats like Haynes and Richardson found batting against a young Muralitharan very tough (even Lara did not sort him out in that test). Simmons, Arthurton et al were sitting ducks. West Indies even at their peak would have got devastated by yop class spin bowler like Murali or Warne. Only time they encountered something close to that was Chandrashekar and Qadir. Chandra was at the end of his career and Qadir was not good enough. Still they managed to create massive dents,.

80s simple did not have good spinners. 90s produced Kumble, Warne, Murali, Mushtaq, Saqlain and Vettori. These guys debuting 10 years earlier would have changed the balance of cricket significantly. (Ex. SL would have been out of minnowhood pretty early, NZ with Hadlee and Vettori would have given WI a run for their money, Pakistan Saqlain instead of Qadir (or playing both) would have demolished West Indies few more times than they did, and India with peak Kapil and Kumble would have been on a different level)

Bro the entirety of thos post and stuff about spinners is baseless. WI in the 70s, when the dynasty began, came up against the likes of Chandra, Prassana and Bedi; still won in India. Against England they faced Underwood still beat England. Wi beat Pakistan away in 1980. The solitary test they won to take the series they faced Qadir and Qasim.

Warne was a atg bowler but he never was the difference maker vs the weaker WI teams (specifically the 90s) he faced, McGrath and Waugh were. Don't know how you expect him to have an even bigger impact vs a much stronger batting lineup ie those of the late 70s early 80s.

I'm not even going to comment on the Vettori, kumble stuff...smh. I don't see how any addition of spinners Murali or whoever would've stopped SL from still being demolished. News flash, no way their 80s batting lineup withstand the WI home and sure as hell not in the WI.

The blips WI had vs hirwani, qadir etc in the 80s are overstated and really need to be put into perspective. The Australian losses came in 4th or 5th tests after WI were already 3-0 up. Hirwanni won a test on a genuine dustbowl akin to pitch from the last test of the India/Australia series in 2004. Wi would've still won the series had I believe either the first or second test not been rained out.

 

[pardus]

Bro the entirety of thos post and stuff about spinners is baseless. WI in the 70s, when the dynasty began, came up against the likes of Chandra, Prassana and Bedi; still won in India. Against England they faced Underwood still beat England. Wi beat Pakistan away in 1980. The solitary test they won to take the series they faced Qadir and Qasim.

Warne was a atg bowler but he never was the difference maker vs the weaker WI teams (specifically the 90s) he faced, McGrath and Waugh were. Don't know how you expect him to have an even bigger impact vs a much stronger batting lineup ie those of the late 70s early 80s.

I'm not even going to comment on the Vettori, kumble stuff...smh. I don't see how any addition of spinners Murali or whoever would've stopped SL from still being demolished. News flash, no way their 80s batting lineup withstand the WI home and sure as hell not in the WI.

The blips WI had vs hirwani, qadir etc in the 80s are overstated and really need to be put into perspective. The Australian losses came in 4th or 5th tests after WI were already 3-0 up. Hirwanni won a test on a genuine dustbowl akin to pitch from the last test of the India/Australia series in 2004. Wi would've still won the series had I believe either the first or second test not been rained out.

Once Warne became Warne after 1993 Ashes, he wasn’t that bad against the Windies. The only blip was the 1999 series when Lara was in the zone and totally destroyed Warne’s confidence. Other than that series Warne always took decent number of wickets in most other series with the West Indies.

In an imaginary face-off, West Indies team of the 80s (without Lara level player of spin) definitely would have had their hands full against Warne, it is hard to see past that. Obviously, Warne wouldn’t have been the only deciding factor but he would have been an important factor nonetheless.

 

[Migara]

Bro the entirety of thos post and stuff about spinners is baseless. WI in the 70s, when the dynasty began, came up against the likes of Chandra, Prassana and Bedi; still won in India. Against England they faced Underwood still beat England. Wi beat Pakistan away in 1980. The solitary test they won to take the series they faced Qadir and Qasim.

Exactly. None of these spinners (barring Chandra and Underwood, who were at twilight of their careers) could be even compared to spin depth of 90s. Indian spin quartret was massacared by Pakistanis, and Underwood was very ineffective on dry Pakistani surfaces. none of them were even close to as good as Kumble, Warne, Murali and Saqlain.

Warne was a atg bowler but he never was the difference maker vs the weaker WI teams (specifically the 90s) he faced, McGrath and Waugh were. Don't know how you expect him to have an even bigger impact vs a much stronger batting lineup ie those of the late 70s early 80s.

Exactly. Weaker teams were already done and dusted by Aussie pace. A better example would be South Africa, who many times dealt with Aussie pace attack, but to get capitulated by Warne. Warne was the difference against all the sides that play pace well. There is no indication to show it won't be the case with West Indies

I'm not even going to comment on the Vettori, kumble stuff...smh. I don't see how any addition of spinners Murali or whoever would've stopped SL from still being demolished. News flash, no way their 80s batting lineup withstand the WI home and sure as hell not in the WI.

19/20 times yes, and that would be the case. There will be one time that even their might is not enough against the greatest test spinner of all time. (and even by then Ranatunga and De Silva were playing, Ranatunga averaging 69 in ODIs against WI during that period)

The blips WI had vs hirwani, qadir etc in the 80s are overstated and really need to be put into perspective. The Australian losses came in 4th or 5th tests after WI were already 3-0 up. Hirwanni won a test on a genuine dustbowl akin to pitch from the last test of the India/Australia series in 2004. Wi would've still won the series had I believe either the first or second test not been rained out.

"Blips" become common when great bowlers are bowling. Kumble bowling on a Hirwani type dust bowl will destroy any ATG lineup most of the time (and dustbowls are the norm for India). I don't rate Qadir as a great test bowler, rather a bowler with great spells. However the evidence is that Kumble destroyed Aussie batting lineups which were of similar greatness and perhaps better players of spin, multiple times. That was with spinners only. Add a Kapil Dev at top of his game to this mix and beating India in India will look as difficult as today for a touring team, how great they are.

 

[Migara]

Once Warne became Warne after 1993 Ashes, he wasn’t that bad against the Windies. The only blip was the 1999 series when Lara was in the zone and totally destroyed Warne’s confidence. Other than that series Warne always took decent number of wickets in most other series with the West Indies.

In an imaginary face-off, West Indies team of the 80s (without Lara level player of spin) definitely would have had their hands full against Warne, it is hard to see past that. Obviously, Warne wouldn’t have been the only deciding factor but he would have been an important factor nonetheless.

This. And McGrath was the type of pacer WI least liked (akin to Hadlee), who bowled line and length, patient, subtle changes and ability to change the line and length abruptly. Imran and Wasim probably were the other two apart from Hadlee, WI did not like facing much due to the fuller lengths they bowled, instead of short filth some others tried against them.

 

[Slifer]

Once Warne became Warne after 1993 Ashes, he wasn’t that bad against the Windies. The only blip was the 1999 series when Lara was in the zone and totally destroyed Warne’s confidence. Other than that series Warne always took decent number of wickets in most other series with the West Indies.

In an imaginary face-off, West Indies team of the 80s (without Lara level player of spin) definitely would have had their hands full against Warne, it is hard to see past that. Obviously, Warne wouldn’t have been the only deciding factor but he would have been an important factor nonetheless.

WI in the 70s/80s had a Lara level of player vs spin in the person of Alvin Kallicharan. Lloyd was also not too far behind. And Warne did good vs WI not great like he was vs England, RSA etc. And another thing to note is I don't see Warne doing a thing vs WI in the Caribbean. And that applies to any of the spinners listed by Migara.

 

[Slifer]

Exactly. None of these spinners (barring Chandra and Underwood, who were at twilight of their careers) could be even compared to spin depth of 90s. Indian spin quartret was massacared by Pakistanis, and Underwood was very ineffective on dry Pakistani surfaces. none of them were even close to as good as Kumble, Warne, Murali and Saqlain.

Exactly. Weaker teams were already done and dusted by Aussie pace. A better example would be South Africa, who many times dealt with Aussie pace attack, but to get capitulated by Warne. Warne was the difference against all the sides that play pace well. There is no indication to show it won't be the case with West Indies

19/20 times yes, and that would be the case. There will be one time that even their might is not enough against the greatest test spinner of all time. (and even by then Ranatunga and De Silva were playing, Ranatunga averaging 69 in ODIs against WI during that period)

"Blips" become common when great bowlers are bowling. Kumble bowling on a Hirwani type dust bowl will destroy any ATG lineup most of the time (and dustbowls are the norm for India). I don't rate Qadir as a great test bowler, rather a bowler with great spells. However the evidence is that Kumble destroyed Aussie batting lineups which were of similar greatness and perhaps better players of spin, multiple times. That was with spinners only. Add a Kapil Dev at top of his game to this mix and beating India in India will look as difficult as today for a touring team, how great they are.

The thing is, you're making it out to seem that just facing spinners alone would've changed the WI fortunes. I disagree. Spinners or not, all those teams from India or SL or whoever would've still been steam rolled by the 4 horsemen. Since you used examples from the 80s, it's only fair I use some from the 90s.

SL won zero tests in the 90s vs RSA home or away who had a similar MO to the 80s WI, pace based attack. India won zero tests in RSA and edged series in India. Australia and RSA series in the 90s were always one test affairs or draws even with Warne. I use 90s RSA because like I said their mo was similar to the 80s WI team ie pace based attacks. Rsa's batting was middling but they still held their own vs all comers. A WI team with a better pace attack and much better batting imo would've done similarly and probably much better in a few cases.

 

[Migara]

The thing is, you're making it out to seem that just facing spinners alone would've changed the WI fortunes. I disagree. Spinners or not, all those teams from India or SL or whoever would've still been steam rolled by the 4 horsemen. Since you used examples from the 80s, it's only fair I use some from the 90s.

Still an ordinary spinner like Hirwani sent WI crashing to the defeat. Not faciung good spinners was infact the only thing great WI teams have not done. When they were faced gainst a good spinner on a good day of his, they would still crash to defeat. Now replace that ordinary one with an ATG one. Now everything changes.

SL won zero tests in the 90s vs RSA home or away who had a similar MO to the 80s WI, pace based attack. India won zero tests in RSA and edged series in India. Australia and RSA series in the 90s were always one test affairs or draws even with Warne. I use 90s RSA because like I said their mo was similar to the 80s WI team ie pace based attacks. Rsa's batting was middling but they still held their own vs all comers. A WI team with a better pace attack and much better batting imo would've done similarly and probably much better in a few cases.

SL face only one series in 90s at home, and Murali just started his career by then. Since then SAF had some serious drubbings on home soil against SL, despite having a greater batting lineup than in 90s. India had a bloody good and special batters in 90s and what they lacked was an ATG spinner. Kumble in that 80s team would have made them close to unbeatable at home as in late 90s and 2000s. So WI even at their peak would have found extremely difficult to play a spin galore from India if it was led by a force of nature like Kumble. Like WI pacers, Kumble on a dustbowl, when ball misbehaves even a little, it means batsmen couldn't do a thing. Now Kumble may have been ineffective on WI pitches, but that is not what we are discussing. A team with Kumble would have ended the WI winning streak much earlier, at least in India.

 

[Migara]

WI in the 70s/80s had a Lara level of player vs spin in the person of Alvin Kallicharan. Lloyd was also not too far behind. And Warne did good vs WI not great like he was vs England, RSA etc. And another thing to note is I don't see Warne doing a thing vs WI in the Caribbean. And that applies to any of the spinners listed by Migara.

Murali averages 23.0 in WI. Ajmal 14.5, Ashwin 23.2, Lyon 23.4, Swann 24.0, Yardley 25.0, Mushtaq Mohammed 25.3, Jenner 26.7 all have done their "things" in carribean. Warne was the odd man. I appreciate that Kalicharan and Lloyd were good, but they are no Lara or Sobers against spin. Nor are they Sidhu or Shewag either or a Andly Flower.

 

[Slifer]

Murali averages 23.0 in WI. Ajmal 14.5, Ashwin 23.2, Lyon 23.4, Swann 24.0, Yardley 25.0, Mushtaq Mohammed 25.3, Jenner 26.7 all have done their "things" in carribean. Warne was the odd man. I appreciate that Kalicharan and Lloyd were good, but they are no Lara or Sobers against spin. Nor are they Sidhu or Shewag either or a Andly Flower.

Now I know you're trolling. What type of batting did they face ffs.

 

[Slifer]

Murali averages 23.0 in WI. Ajmal 14.5, Ashwin 23.2, Lyon 23.4, Swann 24.0, Yardley 25.0, Mushtaq Mohammed 25.3, Jenner 26.7 all have done their "things" in carribean. Warne was the odd man. I appreciate that Kalicharan and Lloyd were good, but they are no Lara or Sobers against spin. Nor are they Sidhu or Shewag either or a Andly Flower.

And you know nothing when it comes to Kallicharan (especially) vs spin:

"The Indian spin bowlers, Bhagwat Chandrasekhar, Venkataraghavan and Erapalli Prasanna were in their prime and they brought all the guile and experience to the fore. But Kaliicharran displayed such expertise that there was little they could do to check the flow of runs from his bat, as he coursed to a magnificent 124 that guided his side to safety.

The fact that eight wickets fell in a heap for 59 runs stands as evidence of his brilliance against top quality spin bowling. This innings set the tone for the series where he scored three more half-centuries, with two of them coming in the last innings of the Tests at Kolkata and Chennai where no other West Indian batsman could get going against the Indian spinners."

"Kallicharran is one of the best players of spin bowling I have seen…This is not to say that he was inadequate against pace, and, at his best, is the complete player" Clive Lloyd.

 

[Slifer]

Still an ordinary spinner like Hirwani sent WI crashing to the defeat. Not faciung good spinners was infact the only thing great WI teams have not done. When they were faced gainst a good spinner on a good day of his, they would still crash to defeat. Now replace that ordinary one with an ATG one. Now everything changes.

SL face only one series in 90s at home, and Murali just started his career by then. Since then SAF had some serious drubbings on home soil against SL, despite having a greater batting lineup than in 90s. India had a bloody good and special batters in 90s and what they lacked was an ATG spinner. Kumble in that 80s team would have made them close to unbeatable at home as in late 90s and 2000s. So WI even at their peak would have found extremely difficult to play a spin galore from India if it was led by a force of nature like Kumble. Like WI pacers, Kumble on a dustbowl, when ball misbehaves even a little, it means batsmen couldn't do a thing. Now Kumble may have been ineffective on WI pitches, but that is not what we are discussing. A team with Kumble would have ended the WI winning streak much earlier, at least in India.

Which one is it, did they face any good spinners or not? This one statement contradicts itself...smh. Fwiw, and yet again WI didn't face any s tier spinners like Warne or murali but they did face Underwood, chandra, bedi etc. And they had varying degrees of success (and some failures admittedly).

Fun fact, WI faced India in 94 with Kumble and they drew. WI faced Wasim, waqar, Mustaq, Qadir and Imran in Pakistan in 1990 and drew. This notion that they would just lose outright to spin is silly.

 

[Gob]

Warne did pretty well against WI at home didn't he. I Don know about others but peak Murali and Warne would have definitely troubled great Wi sides

 

[Slifer]

Warne did pretty well against WI at home didn't he. I Don know about others but peak Murali and Warne would have definitely troubled great Wi sides

They likely would have had issues especially in SL and Australia respectively. But in the WI, that's doubtful. But what Migara is trying to troll and say, is that WI would've lost to 80s Australia and SL had they had those two to call on. That's bs.

 

[srbhkshk]

If Windies played better spinners they would either be collapsing for 50 ao each innings or it would have absolutely zero impact on what they scored without playing said great spinners.

There is no in between.

 

[Teja.]

I started watching cricket in 1992 and at no time were the West Indies ever the top team in my recollection of watching cricket. Throughout the 90s there always seemed to be a number of iffy players in their XI. Might be that realistically by the early 90s they were no longer the best, but it took a few more years for them to be very decisively toppled.

They didn't actually lose a series till 1995 iirc, despite being quite active in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[Gob]

They likely would have had issues especially in SL and Australia respectively. But in the WI, that's doubtful. But what Migara is trying to troll and say, is that WI would've lost to 80s Australia and SL had they had those two to call on. That's bs.

Wi takes turn no? Maybe not back then

 

[Slifer]

Wi takes turn no? Maybe not back then

Yeah Trinidad did. Sabina and Kensington were fast bowlers paradise. ARG and Bourda flat. whatever issues WI may have had away to spinners, didn't translate to the Caribbean.

 

[Migara]

Now I know you're trolling. What type of batting did they face ffs.

Some of these bowled to those "great" players of spin, and still has come up with sub 30 averages. Just because Warne sucked against them in Carribian doesn't mean all other spinners would. In contrary, not so legendary spinners as Jenner, Mohammed and Yardley also have averages sub 25 against them. You are joking if you say Murali or Warne cannot average 20 and around against them.

 

[pardus]

WI in the 70s/80s had a Lara level of player vs spin in the person of Alvin Kallicharan. Lloyd was also not too far behind. And Warne did good vs WI not great like he was vs England, RSA etc. And another thing to note is I don't see Warne doing a thing vs WI in the Caribbean. And that applies to any of the spinners listed by Migara.

Warne played only 2 series in the West Indies. He failed in the 1999 series but he was the second highest wicket taker for Australia in 94-95 series (just 2 behind McGrath) against a team which had Lara, Hooper and Richardson. To claim that he would be able to do nothing against West Indies of the 80s in the Caribbean is a bit extreme. I don’t think it is necessary to counter one extreme viewpoint with another.

Nevertheless it is fascinating to imagine Waugh’s Aussies at their peak with McGrath, Warne, Gillespie and Lee taking on Lloyd’s or Richards’s Windies of the 80s.

 

[Migara]

Which one is it, did they face any good spinners or not? This one statement contradicts itself...smh. Fwiw, and yet again WI didn't face any s tier spinners like Warne or murali but they did face Underwood, chandra, bedi etc. And they had varying degrees of success (and some failures admittedly).

Thanks.

Fun fact, WI faced India in 94 with Kumble and they drew. WI faced Wasim, waqar, Mustaq, Qadir and Imran in Pakistan in 1990 and drew. This notion that they would just lose outright to spin is silly.

Fun fact: A innocous left arm spinner named Venkathapathy Raju, made the best player of spin from West Indies in that era his bitch in that series. Lara never failed against a spinner to the extend he failed against Raju.

West Indies drew the series only due to unbelievable pad play from Jimmy Adams and and Indian collapse. Not once they manage to dominate Indian bowling. It was painful grinding of bowlers by Adams most of the time. And none of the pitches were dust bowls.

Pakistan would have been in much better position with Saqlain. Qadir was ordinary.