The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[_00_deathscar]

Really Tendulkar is an ATG across all formats.

Yea but you wouldn't send him to open in tests...

 

[kyear2]

@Line and Length ,@The Sean,@Fuller Pilch
How will Australia’s all time xi go against a world xi in Australia?5 match series ?
Not my team ,sad omission of Bill O’Reilly in Australia’s all time team and some players in World xi but as per previous CW thread.
World xi:
Hobbs
Hutton
Lara
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Knott(wk)
Imran(c)
Hadlee
Marshall
Murali
VS
Australia XI:
1 V Trumper
2 M Hayden/Ponting
3 D Bradman(c)
4.Steve smith
5 G Chappell
6 K Miller
7 A Gilchrist (wk)
8 R Lindwall
9 S Warne
10 D Lillee
11 G McGrath

Miller is wasted in that team. He was at his best with quick sharp new ball bursts. In this team, to do that you are either taking away the new ball from Lillee or McGrath. And in doing all of this you are weakening the batting line up.


Simpson
Hayden
Bradman
Smith
Chappell / Ponting
Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Cummins
Lillee
McGrath

Much better matchup, though give the advantage to the World XI. Though the fact that this would be close speaks volumes about the history of Aussie cricket.

For your World XI team, I would switch around Lara and Richards. Otherwise perfect

 

[Anthony Clayden]

Simpson
Hayden
Bradman
Ponting
Smith
Border/G Chappell/Miller
Gilchrist
Davidson
Cummins
Warne
McGrath

Davidson gives better variety, batting and catching.
I think the number 6 changes depending where you are playing, in Aus 4 bowlers would be fine with Simpson/Border/Chappell with a few change up overs. In subcontinent your need 5 bowlers, then Miller at 6, and bring in Tiger for Davidson.

 

[HookShot]

Bill O”Reilly has to be in an ATG XI. This means that Miller has to play unless you are happy with O’Reilly being first change - entirely plausible as he was about medium pace and aggressive.

Lindwall, Miller and McGrath all have different actions and styles so there’s enough variety in the opening attack.

McGrath and Lillee effectively fight for the same spot, as do Lindwall, Davidson and Cummins as the team is more balanced with a bowler who can bat at No. 8

01.Victor Trumper
02. Bob Simpson
03. Don Bradman
04. Greg Chappell
05. Allan Border
06. Keith Miller
07, Adam Gilchrist
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Shane Warne
10. Bill O’Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Root averages more in the WI, their averages are practically identical in India and Root hasn’t played in Pakistan. Also yeah I’ll take the NZ difference with a grain of salt considering Greig had all of one innings there his entire career and Root does have a double. entury there. Plus he averages almost 20 more than Greig at home, I’m taking Root.

I agree and Hutton would be captain anyway.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Roots average in New Zealand is low because literally his first complete international series was a 3 match series in NZ and he was still **** then. Since the beginning of 2014(so only excluding his first year when he was ****), these are Roots averages in each nation. Keep in mind that Greig only had a 5 year career compared to Roots 10 year career.

Australia: 39
England: 53
India: 48
New Zealand: 54
South Africa: 50
Sri Lanka: 65
UAE: 57
West Indies: 52

So basically the only real hole in his record is Australia, which is unfortunate because he’s made scores of 89 and 83 agaisnt Cummins and Hazlewood there and 87 against peak Johnson and Harris. Should really have 3 tons there.

In Bangladesh (only 2 tests - one of which England lost) 24.50

Apart from the double hundred on a road in a dull draw, he hasn't done much in NZ either. Interestingly England hasn't won a test in NZ since 2008.

 

[Flem274*]

In Bangladesh (only 2 tests - one of which England lost) 24.50

Apart from the double hundred on a road in a dull draw, he hasn't done much in NZ either. Interestingly England hasn't won a test in NZ since 2008.

He's still a great player though. I've said this before but I find England's all time side the hardest to relate to because Botham aside, the conventional one hung up their boots in 1280 AD.

Joe Root is their best batsman in decades.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Joe Root is their best batsman in decades.

I agree. Better than Cook, KP, Gooch, Gower etc. Probably their best since Boycott, and best middle order bat since Barrington who played his last test in 1968 (54 years ago).

 

[kyear2]

Bill O”Reilly has to be in an ATG XI. This means that Miller has to play unless you are happy with O’Reilly being first change - entirely plausible as he was about medium pace and aggressive.

Lindwall, Miller and McGrath all have different actions and styles so there’s enough variety in the opening attack.

McGrath and Lillee effectively fight for the same spot, as do Lindwall, Davidson and Cummins as the team is more balanced with a bowler who can bat at No. 8

01.Victor Trumper
02. Bob Simpson
03. Don Bradman
04. Greg Chappell
05. Allan Border
06. Keith Miller
07, Adam Gilchrist
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Shane Warne
10. Bill O’Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

Under which conditions would it be necessary to have two leg spin bowlers at all times.

Understand the argument for Lindwall at 8, but Warne was a member of one of the two greatest teams of all time and filled the no. 8 role quite capably. Actually the other contender for greatest team of all time similarly had Marshall at 8, and that also worked out quite well.

Missing out on Steve Smith to play a 5th bowler seems a bit too risky vs other ATG teams though.

 

[Flem274*]

I agree. Better than Cook, KP, Gooch, Gower etc. Probably their best since Boycott, and best middle order bat since Barrington who played his last test in 1968 (54 years ago).

Cook I'm not so sure. Great openers are so rare since cricket took on its modern form in the 70s with the pace bowling revolution. Cook is an incredibly valuable player.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Bill O”Reilly has to be in an ATG XI. This means that Miller has to play unless you are happy with O’Reilly being first change - entirely plausible as he was about medium pace and aggressive.

Lindwall, Miller and McGrath all have different actions and styles so there’s enough variety in the opening attack.

McGrath and Lillee effectively fight for the same spot, as do Lindwall, Davidson and Cummins as the team is more balanced with a bowler who can bat at No. 8

01.Victor Trumper
02. Bob Simpson
03. Don Bradman
04. Greg Chappell
05. Allan Border
06. Keith Miller
07, Adam Gilchrist
08. Ray Lindwall
09. Shane Warne
10. Bill O’Reilly
11. Glenn McGrath

No Steve Smith?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Apart from the double hundred on a road in a dull draw, he hasn't done much in NZ either. Interestingly England hasn't won a test in NZ since 2008.

I mean you can do this for any player though. Take out Williamson’s 2 tons in Australia which came on roads and ended in a draw and a loss or Kohlis ton in NZ that ended in a draw and they haven’t done much there either. In the end of the day they’re all still great innings and shouldn’t just be dismissed because they came on roads.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

1. Simpson
2. Hayden
3. Bradman
4. Smith
5. Chappell
6. Ponting
7. Gilchrist
8. Warne
9. Cummins
10. Lillee
11. McGrath

 

[Prince EWS]

Cook I'm not so sure. Great openers are so rare since cricket took on its modern form in the 70s with the pace bowling revolution. Cook is an incredibly valuable player.

I do sometimes wonder how much of it is the most talented batsmen just not being used as openers and how much of it is opening being harder. It's no doubt a bit of both IMO, but how much weight to give to each reason is something I wonder about sometimes. I don't think opening usually is harder in India for example but the best middle order players there still tend to have better records than the best openers.

 

[Shady Slim]

joe root is really hard to place for mine because while objectively and dispassionately he's their best batsman in yonks he's got a big gaping hole being having done nothing of substance here, and that's a huge minus for a player from Wet Beans On Toast Island

 

[HookShot]

Under which conditions would it be necessary to have two leg spin bowlers at all times.

Understand the argument for Lindwall at 8, but Warne was a member of one of the two greatest teams of all time and filled the no. 8 role quite capably. Actually the other contender for greatest team of all time similarly had Marshall at 8, and that also worked out quite well.

Missing out on Steve Smith to play a 5th bowler seems a bit too risky vs other ATG teams though.

I agree that there would be little point in playing Warne and either Grimmett or Benaud in an ATG team as their methods and style were similar.

However, O’Reilly was no conventional leggie and preferred to bowl at a rapid pace so that ball didn’t turn much more than the width of the bat. You can see from this video that O’Reilly and Warne were chalk ‘n cheese….

 

[Prince EWS]

joe root is really hard to place for mine because while objectively and dispassionately he's their best batsman in yonks he's got a big gaping hole being having done nothing of substance here, and that's a huge minus for a player from Wet Beans On Toast Island

If anything it makes part of me rate him a little higher than his overall average - he plays a disproportionate amount of games against a gun attack in conditions he seems unsuited to. On the other hand Australian pitches have been mostly roads during his career so it could have been something for him to actually cash in on.

 

[HookShot]

And as you can see from this photo there wasn’t much over-the-wrist stuff happening, instead the ball was most likely spun by a snap of the fingers (?)

 

[PlayerComparisons]

If anything it makes part of me rate him a little higher than his overall average - he plays a disproportionate amount of games against a gun attack in conditions he seems unsuited to. On the other hand Australian pitches have been mostly roads during his career so it could have been something for him to actually cash in on.

I think the 2013/2014 series is hard to use agaisnt him since he was still 22 and **** then and had to go up agaisnt Johnson and Harris, which was probably one of the greatest fast bowling duo peaks I’ve seen. Didn’t really expect him to do anything there since none of his experienced teammates could either.

2021/2022 weren’t really roads and was quite bowler friendly, but I think that’s the series thats really going to be and should be used agaisnt him in the future since he was probably at his best. Really should have had a better series and made that 89 a big ton.

2017/2018 pitches were flat, but agaisnt a gun attack. He averaged nearly 50 with 5 fifties in 9 innings. That series was probably his best chance to cash in, but he was having those conversion issues then.

Doubt he’ll fix his record there at this point unfortunately. I think he can still be considered an ATG if he doesn’t though since most great players have a nation where they massively underperformed (like Ponting in India or Dravid in SA and SL).

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Cook I'm not so sure. Great openers are so rare since cricket took on its modern form in the 70s with the pace bowling revolution. Cook is an incredibly valuable player.

True. Opening in England is extremely tough