The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[honestbharani]

Might go for a quicker bowler who can bowl first change instead of McGrath given you have Hadlee, Wasim AND Imran there. Otherwise, fine side.

 

[Starfighter]

But again, we never saw Barnes bowl either,not in his prime at least. And what I did see (admittedly as an older man) his action and movements were that of a spinner

By his own admission Barnes liked to vary his speed. So at the beginning of the innings he was similar to Bedser, and afterwards he was similar to O’Reilly depending on the pitch and conditions.

Yes he could bowl at pace because of his tall up-right action (unlike O’Reilly), but he could bowl like a spinner when he wanted to.

We are looking at one of history’s most adaptable and skilful bowlers.

Explaining this to you two feels like trying to convince a geocentrist that the earth goes around the sun.

 

[HookShot]

Or arcane methods of a bygone era.

Arcane yes, but the ‘Barnes ball’ is incredibly difficult to bowl which is probably why the art of medium paced leg-breaks disappeared.

Ian Peebles tried desperately to learn the ‘Barnes ball’ during the 1920s and even asked Aubrey Faulkner to coach him - Faulkner was a huge fan of Barnes.

But while Peebles was able to bowl the fast finger-spun leg-break in the nets he was never able to duplicate it during actual match play.

In the end Peebles became a conventional over-the-wrist leggie, and a very good at that as he was good enough to trouble Bradman.

‘After getting the reluctant agreement of his parents, Peebles moved to London in early 1926 and joined Faulkner, being paid £3 per week as his secretary. In Spinner’s Yarn, he wrote admiringly of the coaching methods of the man he called “the finest coach I have ever seen.” The two men boarded in the same house and later shared a flat. Peebles worked closely with Faulkner on his own skills, attempting to reproduce the methods of Barnes.’

https://oldebor.wordpress.com/2021/...n-peebles-faulkner-and-the-spectre-of-barnes/

 

[Line and Length]

Interestingly, leggies sometimes posed more of a problem for Bradman than any other type of delivery. Perhaps this led him to rate O'Reilly so highly (and rightly so) and to be aware of Barnes and his ability to bowl medium pace leg breaks.

Eric Hollies, who famously dismissed Bradman second ball thus denying him a 100+ average, was a leggie with an excellent first class record. He allegedly predicted he would get Bradman second ball with his wrong-un.





https://oldebor.wordpress.com/2021/...n-peebles-faulkner-and-the-spectre-of-barnes/
[/QUOTE]

 

[Red]

I think KP probably belongs in an all time England XI. Could take to Warne and McGrath unlike others. Big time player.

Hutton
Hobbs
Hammond
Compton
Pietersen
Botham
Knott +
Larwood
Laker
Barnes
Trueman

 

[Red]

Also think Gooch is vastly underrated. Will never displace Hobbs/Hutton or Sutcliffe, but he had an amazing record against the WI and was great vs Warne.

 

[jayjay]

If I were to create one team for tests and ODIs without changing the batting order that would be...

Matthew Hayden
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
AB De Villiers
Imran Khan *
MS Dhoni +
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Muralitharan
Glen McGrath

In the 14: . Ricky Ponting. Kapil Dev. Joel Garner.

I ALMOST had Hayden but Smith was a very very good opener who also just happens to be an ATG captain, so hard to keep him out.

 

[jayjay]

Under such criterion, I'd probably go with:

Gordon Greenidge
Virender Sehwag
Vivian Richards(C)
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Shakib Al Hasan
Adam Gilchrist+
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath

Lara just edges out Ponting and ABD IMO

I change my mind, I'm picking Viv over Ponting actually!

Shakib over Khan is atrocious though

 

[bagapath]

Might go for a quicker bowler who can bowl first change instead of McGrath given you have Hadlee, Wasim AND Imran there. Otherwise, fine side.

Then Joel Garner for sure...

Matthew Hayden
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
AB De Villiers
Imran Khan *
MS Dhoni +
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner
Muralitharan

 

[jayjay]

So a GOAT England XI...I want to start with the players I saw, so a Jayjay England XI if you must:

1. A. Cook (could be in the AT XI)
2. A. Strauss c
3. I. Bell
4. J. Root (could be in the AT XI)
5. K. Pietersen (could be in the AT XI)
6. B. Stokes ao
7. A. Flintoff ao
8. A. Stewart wk
9. G. Swann
10. S. Broad (could be in the AT XI)
11. J .Anderson (could be in the AT XI)

All Time XI:

1. J. Hobbs
2. A. Cook
3. W. Hammond
4. J. Root
5. K. Pietersen
6. I. Botham ao
7. A. Knott wk
8. F. Trueman
9. B. Willis
10. D. Underwood
11. J. Anderson

No idea who I'd pick as captain among that lot tbh but it's a decent enough side. Probably pale in comparison to ATG sides for Aus, Pak, WI and SA though.

 

[Line and Length]

So a GOAT England XI...I want to start with the players I saw, so a Jayjay England XI if you must:

1. A. Cook (could be in the AT XI)
2. A. Strauss c
3. I. Bell
4. J. Root (could be in the AT XI)
5. K. Pietersen (could be in the AT XI)
6. B. Stokes ao
7. A. Flintoff ao
8. A. Stewart wk
9. G. Swann
10. S. Broad (could be in the AT XI)
11. J .Anderson (could be in the AT XI)

All Time XI:

1. J. Hobbs
2. A. Cook
3. W. Hammond
4. J. Root
5. K. Pietersen
6. I. Botham ao
7. A. Knott wk
8. F. Trueman
9. B. Willis
10. D. Underwood
11. J. Anderson

No idea who I'd pick as captain among that lot tbh but it's a decent enough side. Probably pale in comparison to ATG sides for Aus, Pak, WI and SA though.

I'd have Sutcliffe ahead of Cook.

 

[bagapath]

Second team for tests and ODIs with the same batting order...

Saeed Anwar
G. Smith +
Ricky Ponting
Brian Lara
Michael Hussey
Andrew Flintoff
Jos Butler +
Shaun Pollock
Shane Warne
Waqar Younis
Allan Donald

 

[HookShot]

Then Joel Garner for sure...

Matthew Hayden
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
Virat Kohli
AB De Villiers
Imran Khan *
MS Dhoni +
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Joel Garner
Muralitharan

Surely you've gotta open with Sachin?

 

[HookShot]

Also think Gooch is vastly underrated. Will never displace Hobbs/Hutton or Sutcliffe, but he had an amazing record against the WI and was great vs Warne.

Yeah, seems a bit of an over reaction to write Gooch off because one bad series against Terry Alderman. Was a shocker, but every batsman has a shocker in their portfolio unless they're Bradman or Sachin.

 

[Bitmap]

I change my mind, I'm picking Viv over Ponting actually!

Shakib over Khan is atrocious though

Tbh I wanted a second spinner in the side who can bat in top 7 and Shakib is one of the top contenders for that role.

 

[CricAddict]

Surely you've gotta open with Sachin?

` If I were to create one team for tests and ODIs without changing the batting order that would be.. `

This is his criteria. Can`t have Sachin in the team with that.

 

[Nikhil99.99]

My All time England xi
Hobbs
Hutton(c)
Hammond
Root
Barrington/Compton
Pieterson/Botham
Knott(wk)
Larwood
Laker
Trueman
Barnes

 

[The Sean]

Yeah, seems a bit of an over reaction to write Gooch off because one bad series against Terry Alderman. Was a shocker, but every batsman has a shocker in their portfolio unless they're Bradman or Sachin.

Even Tendulkar had a few very poor series. Not many, relative to the quantity of cricket that he played, but certainly a few.

 

[Prince EWS]

` If I were to create one team for tests and ODIs without changing the batting order that would be.. `

This is his criteria. Can`t have Sachin in the team with that.

Eh I think I'd back Sachin to score more runs in Tests as an opener than Hayden. It's guesswork a little bit of course but I think it's worth the trade-off given you know you're going to get such an upgrade in ODIs.

Given he's very arguably the best cross-format batsman of all time I don't think I'd want to leave him out because he batted mostly in one position in one format and one in another.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Barnes always feels like a mythological creature, like a unicorn. He would be picks on stats, but not sure as what.

Hobbs
Hutton
Hammond
Barrington
Compton
Botham
Knott
Snow
Trueman
Statham
Underwood