CW's Ranking of Batsmen (Tests)

[Spark]

“No matter how many runs Bradman makes, Vic Trumper’s name comes up time and again, and his great deeds are discussed. He took a hold on the hearts and minds of the people in England as no other batsman has done.” - CB Fry

For the most part, admiration for Vic Trumper was because of Vic Trumper himself rather than due to any great antipathy toward Bradman, although there were obviously a few vocal detractors.

All this tells me is that cricket writers liked to write manifestly ludicrous things in the service of artistic license at times.

From 2012 to 2019 Kohli scored 1352 runs over 13 Test matches at an average of 54.08; and all at a strike rate of 53.14

Could Steve Smith have done any better? Probably, possibly. (Joe Root and Kane Williamson certainly didn’t). But we’ll never know.

Did you watch those games between 2012 and 2019, and in particular that series in 2014/15 where Kohli scored the largest bulk of those runs? Kohli did quite well on them but those were mostly the flattest pitches known to man. Kohli's one big series in Australia -- and it really was just one big series, where everyone was scoring runs, not least Smith -- doesn't stand out anywhere near as much as Smith's ridiculous levels of performance in India in 2017 or England in 2019 in far, far more difficult conditions for batting. Hell even the his tour of SA in 2014 right at the start of his explosion as a batting great is more impressive than anything that happened during the 2014/15 Indian tour of Australia, which was a runfest all around with few equals.

This sort of "aesthetics trumps performance" logic, taken seriously, takes you the conclusion that James Vince > Alastair Cook because the former looks better, or that Graeme Smith was an average batsman because he batted in an ugly way. No. If Smith performs better in almost every conceivable way than a direct contemporary than he is better, end of story, regardless of how he looks (and especially because there is an extraordinary amount of skill in being able to make runs in the manner that Smith does).

It diminishes the sport and Tests specifically to reduce it to this sort of Mark Nicholas-ism. A large part of the appeal is not in mere technical fidelity to the MCC coaching manual but watching players develop their own techniques that nevertheless are effective, and also gives players a pass for poor batsmanship and poor application just because they "look good" technically; Kohli is especially guilty of this, having spent most of the last two or three years lazily wafting at wide balls outside off stump and nicking off cheaply but looking great while doing so. This sort of thinking absolutely infests modern selection philosophy at all levels of cricket too, it needs to go.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

“No matter how many runs Bradman makes, Vic Trumper’s name comes up time and again, and his great deeds are discussed. He took a hold on the hearts and minds of the people in England as no other batsman has done.” - CB Fry

For the most part, admiration for Vic Trumper was because of Vic Trumper himself rather than due to any great antipathy toward Bradman, although there were obviously a few vocal detractors.

Point is, people from every culture recognise genius when they see it which is why a German from Munich could watch Brian Lara bat and work-out that he is an all-time-great batsman.

Personally, I watched Virat Kohli bat quite a lot during his tours to Australia and concluded that he was one of the absolute best because of the way he played some of the best bowlers in my life-time, on their home turf - Harris, Johnson, Cummins, Hazlewood, Stark, Lyon etc.

And the stats back me up.....

From 2012 to 2019 Kohli scored 1352 runs over 13 Test matches at an average of 54.08; and all at a strike rate of 53.14

Could Steve Smith have done any better? Probably, possibly. (Joe Root and Kane Williamson certainly didn’t). But we’ll never know.

But I do know that Kohli’s skill is on a par with Smith and I’m not going to pigeon hole him with some raw numbers like some boring accountant.

Unfortunately Kohli's "skill" resulted in him averaging 34.6 in England, 36 in New Zealand, 35.6 in West Indies. On the other hand Smith has averaged 59.6 in England, 131 in New Zealand, and 141.5 in West Indies. The only nation where Kohli has outperformed Smith is South Africa.

Got to remember that cricket exists outside of Australia. Kohli may be a far better player to watch, but Smith produces far better results. It's really not close lol. It's debatable whether Kohli is even ahead of Root or Williamson, so he shouldn't even be compared to Smith tbh.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

And the stats back me up.....

From 2012 to 2019 Kohli scored 1352 runs over 13 Test matches at an average of 54.08; and all at a strike rate of 53.14

Could Steve Smith have done any better? Probably, possibly. (Joe Root and Kane Williamson certainly didn’t). But we’ll never know.

???
Steve Smith did much much better than Kohli and Williamson did a lot better than Kohli too despite batting at 3 which is harder than 4.

 

[Spark]

???
Steve Smith and Kane Williamson both did much better than Kohli.

I presume he means against the Australian attack (which, obviously, is not actually the sole measure of a great batsman). And yeah Kane Williamson did just as well if not better than Kohli not long after his big 14-15 series against basically the same bowlers; no coincidence that the pitches were once again runways.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I presume he means against the Australian attack (which, obviously, is not actually the sole measure of a great batsman). And yeah Kane Williamson did just as well if not better than Kohli not long after his big 14-15 series against basically the same bowlers; no coincidence that the pitches were once again runways.

Those pitches were some of the flattest pitches I've ever seen. Weren't the flat roads in the New Zealand series part of the reason Johnson decided to retire? The bowling attacks weren't that great either with Johnson past his peak and no Cummins.
It's no surprise once Australia's bowling attack got better with Cummins and Hazlewood both at their peak on slightly spicier pitches, Kohli averaged only 40 in 2018-2019 and Williamson averaged 14 in 2019. Root averaged 47 in 2017-2018 against Cummins and Hazlewood, but he did fail miserably in 2013/2014 (to be fair he was like 21-22 and only one year into his career and against Johnson at his peak who averaged 13 in the series, but that doesn't excuse it I guess)

I'd like to see them produce those monster series against prime Cummins and Hazlewood on pitches like we just saw in the recent Ashes where Smith, Warner, and Root couldn't score a ton and averaged low 30s. Marnus himself had a huge dip in his average with how bowler friendly the conditions were and only got a ton because of multiple drop catches.

 

[Spark]

Those pitches were some of the flattest pitches I've ever seen. Weren't the flat roads in the New Zealand series part of the reason Johnson decided to retire? The bowling attacks weren't that great either with Johnson past his peak and no Cummins.
It's no surprise once Australia's bowling attack got better with Cummins and Hazlewood both at their peak on slightly spicier pitches, Kohli averaged only 40 in 2018-2019 and Williamson averaged 14 in 2019. Root averaged 47 in 2017-2018 against Cummins and Hazlewood, but he did fail miserably in 2013/2014 (to be fair he was like 21-22 and only one year into his career and against Johnson at his peak who averaged 13 in the series, but that doesn't excuse it I guess)

I'd like to see them produce those monster series against prime Cummins and Hazlewood on pitches like we just saw in the recent Ashes where Smith, Warner, and Root couldn't score a ton and averaged low 30s. Marnus himself had a huge dip in his average with how bowler friendly the conditions were and only got a ton because of multiple drop catches.

Yeah those pitches over those two summers basically sent Johnson into retirement and all but finished off Harris as a Test bowler. Beyond those two, Aus were IIRC playing a Hazlewood who was only just starting out in Tests, a Starc who hadn't really hacked the format yet and Peter Siddle.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Williamson's innings at the Gabba in 2015 was one of his best ever (140 off 178 balls in a team score of 317). The Australian commentators couldn't get over it. Watch it on YouTube - stunning shots through the off side.

His century in the 2nd test was on a road and was overshadowed by Taylor's 290, but was under huge scoreboard pressure.

Then the 3rd test in Adelaide was the 1st pink ball test and ball dominated bat. (There was also Nigel Llong saving Australia but that's for another time). After/During that series Kane was no1 in the world for the first time.

 

[Daemon]

Spark replying to HookShot in good faith is killing me

 

[Daemon]

I’m not going to pigeon hole him with some raw numbers like some boring accountant

Lets not get personal here..

 

[OverratedSanity]

Did you watch those games between 2012 and 2019, and in particular that series in 2014/15 where Kohli scored the largest bulk of those runs? Kohli did quite well on them but those were mostly the flattest pitches known to man. Kohli's one big series in Australia -- and it really was just one big series, where everyone was scoring runs, not least Smith -- doesn't stand out anywhere near as much as Smith's ridiculous levels of performance in India in 2017 or England in 2019 in far, far more difficult conditions for batting. Hell even the his tour of SA in 2014 right at the start of his explosion as a batting great is more impressive than anything that happened during the 2014/15 Indian tour of Australia, which was a runfest all around with few equals.

This post is as unfair to Kohli as the Hookshot ones are fanboy ish. You've just picked one series which was high scoring and pretended it was representative of that entire 2012-2019 period. Kohli's tour of SA in 2018 on treacherous pitches is far more impressive than anything Smith did there. His tour of England was amazing considering the lack of support from his teammates and he had to actually face Anderson which when touring England is the true challenge. His Adelaide 4th innings ton is always underrated by people who go "but muh roads" when in reality it spun as much for Lyon on the last day as any pitch I've seen in Australia. His Perth ton in the 2018 tour was on a difficult pitch against high quality bowling.

He's not Smith because nobody is but let's not be silly here.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

This post is as unfair to Kohli as the Hookshot ones are fanboy ish. You've just picked one series which was high scoring and pretended it was representative of that entire 2012-2019 period. Kohli's tour of SA in 2018 on treacherous pitches is far more impressive than anything Smith did there. His tour of England was amazing considering the lack of support from his teammates and he had to actually face Anderson which when touring England is the true challenge. His Adelaide 4th innings ton is always underrated by people who go "but muh roads" when in reality it spun as much for Lyon on the last day as any pitch I've seen in Australia. His Perth ton in the 2018 tour was on a difficult pitch against high quality bowling.

He's not Smith because nobody is but let's not be silly here.

True he did play a lot of really high quality knocks overseas in tough conditions in 2018 with not much batting support around him. I think he has the best peak for sure out of Kohli/Root/Williamson.

 

[Spark]

This post is as unfair to Kohli as the Hookshot ones are fanboy ish. You've just picked one series which was high scoring and pretended it was representative of that entire 2012-2019 period. Kohli's tour of SA in 2018 on treacherous pitches is far more impressive than anything Smith did there. His tour of England was amazing considering the lack of support from his teammates and he had to actually face Anderson which when touring England is the true challenge. His Adelaide 4th innings ton is always underrated by people who go "but muh roads" when in reality it spun as much for Lyon on the last day as any pitch I've seen in Australia. His Perth ton in the 2018 tour was on a difficult pitch against high quality bowling.

He's not Smith because nobody is but let's not be silly here.

Oh yeah I'm not saying Kohli wasn't ATG tier great in that period. It's just that cherrypicking his record in Australia of all things is a really weird way to make that case at a statistical level; as you say his 2018 tour was very impressive but statistically, 2014 is what holds up his record.

His tour of England a few years back was definitely more impressive in my eyes than his record in Aus. I'd agree with your SA point too. "But can Smith do it against Hazlewood and Cummins" is just not a good argument for Kohli's greatness.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

True he did play a lot of really high quality knocks overseas in tough conditions in 2018 with not much batting support around him. I think he has the best peak for sure out of Kohli/Root/Williamson.

Is his current slump the worst of them though?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Is his current slump the worst of them though?

Yeah his peak is the best but his slump is the worst. This could change in the future though.

 

[honestbharani]

I dont mind Hookshot's take. I dont agree with it, but there are many fans who tend to rate players on aesthetics than results. Its part of the reason its a sport.

 

[Line and Length]

Aesthetics vs results would explain Ken Barrington's CW rating being well below his statistical standing.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Aesthetics vs results would explain Ken Barrington's CW rating being well below his statistical standing.

Well strike rate is an important statistic(that’s the reason Viv is rated so highly in my opinion), and it seems Barrington had a pretty poor one(based on what I’ve read here) so that’s probably the reason he’s not like in the top 10 or 15.

 

[Days of Grace]

Well strike rate is an important statistic(that’s the reason Viv is rated so highly in my opinion), and it seems Barrington had a pretty poor one(based on what I’ve read here) so that’s probably the reason he’s not like in the top 10 or 15.

Barrington had the same strike-rate as Peter May and Denis Compton, according to Charles Davis (see his z-score website). So he scored at the same speed as Compton but he looked uglier when doing it, he didn’t face the same quality of bowling and he played in a very dull era.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Barrington had the same strike-rate as Peter May and Denis Compton, according to Charles Davis (see his z-score website). So he scored at the same speed as Compton but he looked uglier when doing it, he didn’t face the same quality of bowling and he played in a very dull era.

Interesting, wasn’t aware of that but good to know.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Poor Flower gets ignored for ages and then when he finally starts getting votes, the poll gets abandoned smh.