Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[sunilz]

Again, that home records doesnt cover up their weaknesses as a team, especially as a batting lineup. Can we talk about that please?

So winning doesn't matter anymore. Being better looking side on paper matters. Do you even believe what you write?

 

[subshakerz]

When you play 2 Test series overseas how are you going to lose 4-1 ?

SA 2010 side couldn't win 1 test against full strength IND 2010 side.
In the 2 Test they won , Laxman didn't play the 1st one (IND), Zaheer didn't play the 2nd one(SA)

I mean, they won tests in India in 2008 and 2010.

 

[Xix2565]

Again, that home records doesnt cover up their weaknesses as a team, especially as a batting lineup. Can we talk about that please?

SA also had weaknesses then by that regard, considering their lack of success in India and failing at home vs Australia. Wonder what those weaknesses are, wish people would bring that up as well.

 

[PaulLennon]

Except you have to offset that by the fact that they had an unbeaten 9-year away streak, which is something even the great Australian side didnt accomplish. You are not giving it its dues.

And which side is considered greater?

In cricket you have to win matches. That's it.

 

[anil1405]

Except you have to offset that by the fact that they had an unbeaten 9-year away streak, which is something even the great Australian side didnt accomplish. You are not giving it its dues.

And you aren't giving enough dues to the fact that RSA lost two test series against Aus and drew one each against Aus, Eng and Ind at home. Almost all their series wins at home came against sides that did not give them enough competition and when they did Proteas failed to live up to the hype at home.

 

[Spark]

I dunno... If u wanna dive down that rabbithole, then Aussies did not really win the 2007/08 BG series either. A certain level of objectivity actually helps in these discussions.

? I don't understand where you're going with this.

I'm not saying "don't talk about results", but context matters, a lot. The reason we weight certain results way higher than others is because of the strength of the opposition and the difficulty of the conditions. Clearly, contextual strength of opposition matters; so we should take stats which, by definition, completely erase such considerations with a massive grain of salt.

 

[PaulLennon]

I mean, they won tests in India in 2008 and 2010.

and lost home series, drew home series and dropped a match to SL as well.

 

[sunilz]

Except you have to offset that by the fact that they had an unbeaten 9-year away streak, which is something even the great Australian side didnt accomplish. You are not giving it its dues.

BG trophy was 1-1 draw in 01 Ashes series was 1-1 Draw in 05 if they were 2 Test series.

 

[subshakerz]

I think the fundamental reason I dislike the W/L analysis stuff is it completely erases, you know, the actual games of cricket that were played and reduces everything to basically nametags. But India didn't beat "AUS", the disembodied nametag, they beat a cricket team, and the actual quality of the cricket team that was beaten and the actual quality of the cricketers involved does actually matter some. That's why everyone here agrees that 2020-21 was a more satisfying series win than 2018-19; the former was a far more impressive achievement because the opposition was stronger. Something raw W/L completely ignores.

Well I agree. The reason I am emphasizing looking at the actual teams rather than just W/L ratios is that you can compare their weaknesses and strengths as a side before making a judgment on who is better. Posters here are clearly just trying to narrow down on the stats criteria that suits India, which is home record, to prove that it is a better team. In fact, superior home record is the only argument they have.

 

[Spark]

BG trophy was 1-1 draw in 01 Ashes series was 1-1 Draw in 05 if they were 2 Test series.

This is exactly what I meant when I mentioned that the 2 test series thing muddies the waters a lot when simply considering series results.

**** 2 Test series.

 

[sunilz]

I mean, they won tests in India in 2008 and 2010.

So in 2010 Test they won , IND had full strength side ? Go and check scorecard.

 

[subshakerz]

BG trophy was 1-1 draw in 01 Ashes series was 1-1 Draw in 05 if they were 2 Test series.

What is your point? SA also played 3 and 4 test match series?

 

[Spark]

Well I agree. The reason I am emphasizing looking at the actual teams rather than just W/L ratios is that you can compare their weaknesses and strengths as a side before making a judgment on who is better. Posters here are clearly just trying to narrow down on the stats criteria that suits India, which is home record, to prove that it is a better team. In fact, superior home record is the only argument they have.

I think India currently does have a certain je ne sais quoi that makes them quite a bit greater than the sum of their parts, though. On paper they should have been blown away by Australia last year too, and they honestly should probably have lost in England. But they find a way to win, somehow, and that's an intangible quality that "on paper" lineups can't quite capture.

I will make it clear again though: that's principally because of Bumrah in particular and Siraj more recently, and so the analysis from 2015 posted a few posts ago is entirely irrelevant in my eyes. As far as I'm concerned, this current Indian team was born in 2018 when Bumrah became a permanent fixture of the team.

If there is a criticism of the SA side of that era, it's that they were the opposite: they were sometimes less than the some of their parts and the otherwise stellar batting often creaked when put under real pressure; it lacked firefighters and lower-order tenacity to dig them out of holes. Which is why Australia were consistently able to take games off them at home when really SA looked the much better team on paper. That was the era when "downhill skiier" was applied to Kallis and ABdV a lot.

 

[anil1405]

It feels weird to rate a side that has been utterly dominant when they toured abroad but didn't have the killer instinct to fight against the sides that gave them stiff competition in home conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

That 12-14 team was given a tough fight by a rookie India playing their first series away from home. Also lost to an Aus team at home which was whitewashed in Ind a year prior.

They nearly chased down 400 plus against that rookie India.

And we covered that Aus loss. That SA side was on the downswing.

 

[sunilz]

What is your point? SA also played 3 and 4 test match series?

How many 3 test match series they played in Asia in 07-14 ?
Ans =1

 

[Xix2565]

Feels cheap to go straight to intangibles when statistics and records exist you know.

 

[OverratedSanity]

A side more capable of winning in all conditions = a stronger side = Smith's South Africa.

Even accepting this criteria, can you point out in which conditions was Smith's SA significantly better? England/NZ I guess. Pretty much everywhere else it is at worst even . Do you think this is significant enough to override India's absurd record at home where they've won 26 and lost 2 in the last 7 years?

 

[sunilz]

They nearly chased down 400 plus against that rookie India.

And we covered that Aus loss. That SA side was on the downswing.

They shouldn't have allowed a rookie side to post 450 .

 

[PaulLennon]

I think India currently does have a certain je ne sais quoi that makes them quite a bit greater than the sum of their parts, though. On paper they should have been blown away by Australia last year too, and they honestly should probably have lost in England. But they find a way to win, somehow, and that's an intangible quality that "on paper" lineups can't quite capture

that je ne sais quoi is depth. While this India's first XI might not match up against ATG first XI sides, their first 30 is prolly one of the best in history. And considering that in the real world unlike hypothetical matchups, people have injuries etc depth matters. When McGrath got injured in both the 03-04 BGT and 05 Ashes the bowling looked a lot weaker.

BGT 20-21 Bumrah goes out - Siraj picks up the slack
Eng tour 21 Jadeja sits out - Axar picks up the slack
Oval test Shami sits out - Umesh picks up the slack
NZ test series half the team sits out - Saha, Iyer, Agarwal picks up the slack

So in a real world series against Smith et all or even the Aus and WI sides I would expect this Indian side to win matches away (against SA even a series) simply because injuries etc might occur. Home will be easy wins for Ind against all these teams.