Will this be England's worst ever 5-0 defeat in Australia?

[Gob]

This is true. I suppose I was addressing cnerd's initial question rather than the options he provided. This one isn't as traumatic as 2013-14 for the reason you provided. But I reckon it's a worse performance because Aus aren't by any means outstanding.

I know losing to India at home takes away any right Australia have on calling them selves a good team until they do something meaningful but atleast players wise, current side is better than 13/14 imo.

 

[wpdavid]

I know losing to India at home takes away any right Australia have on calling them selves a good team until they do something meaningful but at least players wise, current side is better than 13/14 imo.

Interesting point. I suppose I'm assuming that having MJ at the absolute peak of his powers makes the 2013/14 side better and that Harris is as good as anyone in the current side. Perhaps the presence of Labu as well as Smith and Warner makes the current side's batting stronger. And perhaps I'm over-stating Harris in comparison to Cummins.

 

[GIMH]

You put Atherton, Stewart and Russell in this side and it improves dramatically despite their ages.

Put Root, Stokes, Robinson, Anderson & Broad into any 90s side and it improves.

In both cases, the problem are a lack of depth below the top players

 

[Woodster]

The way the series has started is not a surprise to any England fan that have watched the side closely for the last couple of years. Of course there’s a sprinkling of hope at the start just before that first ball is bowled but reality strikes hard following the first inevitable collapse of the tour.

Other, more unexpected 5-0’s will certainly have hurt more, this one will hurt because it’s not even a top Aussie side handing out the thrashing. A quality bowling attack with the full side but a batting line-up with their own fragilities that haven’t been put under any pressure due to our inability to put anything close to a competitive total on the board.

Because Australia are not a top class side and because we will put in a performance somewhere where we don’t make so many basic mistakes (and we may even get selection right aswell!) means we’ll avoid a whitewash. Selection is always tough when you’re essentially reshuffling a pack where there just isn’t the quality required, but we can help ourselves more.

 

[Gob]

Interesting point. I suppose I'm assuming that having MJ at the absolute peak of his powers makes the 2013/14 side better and that Harris is as good as anyone in the current side. Perhaps the presence of Labu as well as Smith and Warner makes the current side's batting stronger. And perhaps I'm over-stating Harris in comparison to Cummins.

Smith was still establishing his place in the team let alone being great and so was Warner. I think that was the series they both properly launched their careers. MJ/Harris vs Cummins/Haze was close one. Former maybe had more fire power but the latter was more consistent. I guess Marnus cancels out Clarke and both had spuds like Harris/Bailey. Close thing certainly

 

[Gob]

The way the series has started is not a surprise to any England fan that have watched the side closely for the last couple of years. Of course there’s a sprinkling of hope at the start just before that first ball is bowled but reality strikes hard following the first inevitable collapse of the tour.

Other, more unexpected 5-0’s will certainly have hurt more, this one will hurt because it’s not even a top Aussie side handing out the thrashing. A quality bowling attack with the full side but a batting line-up with their own fragilities that haven’t been put under any pressure due to our inability to put anything close to a competitive total on the board.

Because Australia are not a top class side and because we will put in a performance somewhere where we don’t make so many basic mistakes (and we may even get selection right aswell!) means we’ll avoid a whitewash. Selection is always tough when you’re essentially reshuffling a pack where there just isn’t the quality required, but we can help ourselves more.

You are losing to a side that has Warner, Marnus, Smith, Cummins, Hazlewood, Lyon and the pace depths. I think they have under performed for years given the quality of some of the players but they are still good enough to beat a full strength England side not making basic mistakes

 

[andruid]

The fir

Yeah the two 5-0s won’t be topped.

The first one was a tragedy, the second one a farce.

 

[Burgey]

Smith was still establishing his place in the team let alone being great and so was Warner. I think that was the series they both properly launched their careers. MJ/Harris vs Cummins/Haze was close one. Former maybe had more fire power but the latter was more consistent. I guess Marnus cancels out Clarke and both had spuds like Harris/Bailey. Close thing certainly

Harris/ Johnson was the closest thing to Lillee/ Thomson anyone who wasn’t around in the 70s will ever see. Their MOs were almost carbon copies of the blokes from the 70s (as was Johnson’s Mo, come to that).
Closest I’ve ever come to feeling sorry for a Pommy batsman, that series. It was scary, horrifying and beautiful all at once. Like a pride of lions tearing apart a kill.

 

[Burgey]

Never mind the bullshit commentary and packaging of this clip, the bowling is just no. No thanks. Yuck

 

[Gob]

Never mind the bull**** commentary and packaging of this clip, the bowling is just no. No thanks. Yuck

Haha crazy thing was he only played that series because everyone else baring Harris and Siddle were injured. Remember being pretty pissed myself when I heard he was picked ahead of Chad Sayers. Chad ****ing Sayers. Fair to say a lot of people tasted hard throughout and after that series

 

[wpdavid]

Harris/ Johnson was the closest thing to Lillee/ Thomson anyone who wasn’t around in the 70s will ever see. Their MOs were almost carbon copies of the blokes from the 70s (as was Johnson’s Mo, come to that).
Closest I’ve ever come to feeling sorry for a Pommy batsman, that series. It was scary, horrifying and beautiful all at once. Like a pride of lions tearing apart a kill.

And it makes such a difference of course. Back in 1974/75, Aus had a 4-0 lead going into the final test, with England's batters absolutely shell-shocked by L&T. Neither of whom featured in the final test (one missed it, the other was injured very early on) and England won by an innings.

 

[Spark]

Yeah that particular Aus team was lightning in a bottle. A series between this current Aus side and that 13/14 Clarke-led side would be immense fun, but you’d back the latter because I can’t see how anyone short of peak Smith can deal with Johnson/Harris in that mood and Smith isn’t quite at that level right now. This current side is probably a bit more well-rounded - the 13/14 top order is actually quite thin, especially against high quality seam - but when you have the bowling equivalent of a 18-pounder, it doesn’t really matter.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

England arguably have never since been as good as they were going into the 2013/14 Ashes. Obviously a lot of the players had already peaked anyway, but Johnson basically unravelled a whole era of England cricket that series. England had to rebuild the team immediately afterwards and they're still rebuilding 8 years later. I'm not sure we've had a settled XI that whole time.

 

[Woodster]

You are losing to a side that has Warner, Marnus, Smith, Cummins, Hazlewood, Lyon and the pace depths. I think they have under performed for years given the quality of some of the players but they are still good enough to beat a full strength England side not making basic mistakes

This Australian side would beat any XI we could put out in Aussie conditions, no questions, basic errors or not. We simply can’t bat well enough.

I’m not having it’s one of the stronger Australian teams though, prior to the opening Test there were fragilities there that a top side would exploit, we ain’t a top side anymore and haven’t been for a few years.

 

[wpdavid]

Yeah that particular Aus team was lightning in a bottle. A series between this current Aus side and that 13/14 Clarke-led side would be immense fun, but you’d back the latter because I can’t see how anyone short of peak Smith can deal with Johnson/Harris in that mood and Smith isn’t quite at that level right now. This current side is probably a bit more well-rounded - the 13/14 top order is actually quite thin, especially against high quality seam - but when you have the bowling equivalent of a 18-pounder, it doesn’t really matter.

That sounds pretty fair. One of the frustrations of the 2013/14 series was how often we had Aus five down for not very many only for Haddin to rescue the innings. Now I'm doing this from memory, so it may not have actually happened all that often, but that's how I remember it. And of course, one of the frustrating things about that was that it was Brad Haddin, who remains one of the more obnoxious cricketers that one could wish to meet. And given how well J&H bowled, Aus may well have had enough runs even without the keeper's contributions with the bat. But your point about the 13/14 top order is well made.

 

[GIMH]

That sounds pretty fair. One of the frustrations of the 2013/14 series was how often we had Aus five down for not very many only for Haddin to rescue the innings. Now I'm doing this from memory, so it may not have actually happened all that often, but that's how I remember it. And of course, one of the frustrating things about that was that it was Brad Haddin, who remains one of the more obnoxious cricketers that one could wish to meet. And given how well J&H bowled, Aus may well have had enough runs even without the keeper's contributions with the bat. But your point about the 13/14 top order is well made.

Definitely how I remember it. And every second innings Anderson and Broad were on a hiding to nothing from Warner due to pathetic batting from us.

 

[Gob]

Without checking, I think Rad was batting before Aust reach 150 in all games but Adelaide in which he was in around 250.

 

[Uppercut]

I know it won’t hurt as much as the others but I think this is the worst performance. They’re less competitive against a worse Australia team. 13/14 Midge was probably the best series of bowling by anyone this century, it doesn’t matter that the other 10 players are a bit better now.

This one is the most depressing for an Ashes loving neutral. Just nothing worth tuning in for.

 

[TheJediBrah]

So many to choose from it's going to be hard to determine

 

[GIMH]

I know it won’t hurt as much as the others but I think this is the worst performance. They’re less competitive against a worse Australia team. 13/14 Midge was probably the best series of bowling by anyone this century, it doesn’t matter that the other 10 players are a bit better now.

This one is the most depressing for an Ashes loving neutral. Just nothing worth tuning in for.

Yeah but in 13/14 we had every right to expect more from the team. That mods than offsets the relative merits of the Aussie line up