subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
A bit harsh on Cairns and Flintoff.
-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
The Better Player: Ravi Ashwin vs. Shaun Pollock
- Thread starter subshakerz
- Start date
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Not ATG level either of them. Pollock and Kallis are
Coronis
International Coach
Agreed, whilst Kallis and Pollock were clearly their superiors, I’d call 2 blokes averaging 30/30 world class allrounders.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Thus making Jadeja the GOAT
I don’t see Pollock as a 20ish pace bowler. I see him at or around 10. He was incredible for a long time.
That’s why he is higher. I would put him at or very close to Imran.
Doesn’t take away from Ashwin’s ATG status.
And another 3 to 4 years of Ashwin could well put him ahead.
That’s why he is higher. I would put him at or very close to Imran.
Doesn’t take away from Ashwin’s ATG status.
And another 3 to 4 years of Ashwin could well put him ahead.
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
McGrath, Lillee, Hadlee, Imran, Akram, Steyn, Donald, Garner, Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Trueman all comfortably better than Pollock, and Waqar, Walsh, Lindwall, Roberts, Davidson all likely better. Anderson might have a case too.
trundler
Request Your Custom Title Now!
subshakerz
Hall of Fame Member
Pollock > Imran seems crazier to me than Anderson > Pollock. Though for the record, I am inclined to put Pollock over Anderson.
Last edited:
Slifer
International Captain
Inclined?? It's a no-brainer. Pollock > Anderson. Easily.
CodeOfWisden
U19 Cricketer
Pollock > Warne, Murali too if we go by stats but you just can't compare a pacer to a spinner.
Ashwin has a way better position amongst spinners than Pollock has amongst pacers.
Ashwin has a way better position amongst spinners than Pollock has amongst pacers.
i don’t agree about Holding, Garner, Lindwall, Roberts, Davidson - maybe Waqar and maybe Walsh
the body of wickets matter. It’s a lot harder to average 23 and take 420 wickets than do the same on 250 wickets
and I think Ashwin is one of those players where appreciation will grow over time. Especially if he has another three good years and 150+ wickets and maybe a couple more 100s in him. At that point that’s in the realm of being one of the most valuable players in history.
Slifer
International Captain
Doesn't matter. That's because very good spinners are generally few and far between compared to pacers. Name all the countries where Ashwin has been more effective than Pollock? India and.....?
Australia has produced:
Warne, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Benaud vs
McGrath, Gillespie, Lillee, Davidson, Lindwall, Miller etc etc. Even now they have an excellent pace trio vs Lyons (lol)
You'll see that trend repeated with every team with the exception of India and SL. And even then, only really Murali is comparable to top pace bowlers. Warne and Murali are held so high because they have been effective world wide and their sheer volume of wickets. But imo though, you put a top pace bowler vs any top spinner pace>spin.
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Yea but that’s cos our spinners are actually good as our pace bowlers as opposed to Lyon-like mediocrity…
CodeOfWisden
U19 Cricketer
Why do Aussie selectors select a 32 averaging Lyon when they can easily have a below 30 averaging pacer?
Example - Lyon had a fixed spot in the team even when Pattinson was available.
That is because they knew a spinner has a totally different job in the team, don't just look up at those averages man!
CodeOfWisden
U19 Cricketer
Lyon is not mediocre (talking about his whole career and not just current form)
He is definitely an Australian great.
Spark
Global Moderator
Ashwin has had two excellent tours, by visiting offspinner standards, to Australia. Still averages over 40 here and has taken <4 wickets a game.
Lyon's bowling is faaar from perfect but he's by far the most disrespected bowler on here for what he's done for Aus teams over the last decade. Go look at what happened to the otherwise-excellent English seamers in the final session of Day 2 to see what would happen if Lyon hadn't been around to constantly keep a lid of things and even present a wicket-taking threat with the old ball on Australian pitches. "Not getting hammered" is a serious achievement on these decks in the last decade, and he's surpassed that standard,particularly as we've not had a seam-bowling all-rounder for much of that period (Watson having retired in 2015)*
EDIT: I forgot MMarsh existed for a moment. Still, point stands: you need Lyon bowling 30+ overs an innings basically every innings and being reliable for 2.5rpo and maybe a wicket or two if you don't want your gun pacers to disintegrate every second game.
Lyon's bowling is faaar from perfect but he's by far the most disrespected bowler on here for what he's done for Aus teams over the last decade. Go look at what happened to the otherwise-excellent English seamers in the final session of Day 2 to see what would happen if Lyon hadn't been around to constantly keep a lid of things and even present a wicket-taking threat with the old ball on Australian pitches. "Not getting hammered" is a serious achievement on these decks in the last decade, and he's surpassed that standard,
EDIT: I forgot MMarsh existed for a moment. Still, point stands: you need Lyon bowling 30+ overs an innings basically every innings and being reliable for 2.5rpo and maybe a wicket or two if you don't want your gun pacers to disintegrate every second game.
Last edited:
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I think part of it is pretty much a lack of understanding of how and why a spinner is valuable for the statsguru generation.
I mean, Lyon is a bloody good bowler. For a guy to have been as successful as he has been shows how well he understands the finer aspects of spin bowling, the angles, the changes of pace and trajectory and the revs etc. I just think there is a whole new generation of cricket fans who dont play the game as much as they watch it, at least here in India, due to the paucity of actual playing spaces etc in cities, who just do not get the practical difficulties involved in the game and why you need the different roles and styles, especially in bowling.
Last edited:
Spark
Global Moderator
Absolutely. Just a lack of appreciation for how a Test attack functions as a unit, as well as an understanding of how spinners work in an Australian-conditions attack. You can't not play a spinner here unless you have five frontline quality seam bowlers (and then you risk short-handing your batting and/or having a lack of variety) because of how tough it is with the old ball and how much work it is to get wickets, but the simple fact is that what happened to Leach has happened to many, many visiting offspinners over the years; "target the offspinner so the quicks get cooked and we can score for fun after tea" is like the most basic Australian-conditions tactic imaginable, it's a mark of Lyon's quality that it's never really been possible against him. It took Ashwin two tours of getting absolutely carted by Clarke and Smith to really appreciate how you have to bowl here, for example.