The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red_Ink_Squid]

I think it's also fair to judge wicketkeepers relative to their peers the same way as we judge bowlers and batsmen based on the era they played in. Somehow transport Grace or Hobbs (with no changes to their games) into the present day and they'd doubtless not be able to cope against the top bowlers now because the game has moved on so far. But they were giants in their own era and are rightly remembered as greats.

Similarly if Tallon et al. were otherworldly compared to other wicketkeepers in their own time then we should still herald their genius, even if the progress in professionalism/athleticism/coaching/etc. means that their level of performance (or even higher) is expected these days.

(That's not to comment on whether or not wicketkeeping standards actually have improved or not - I've not watched anything like the amount of old footage that Starfighter has - but it shouldn't be particularly surprising if they have.)

 

[trundler]

Nah scratch all that. Tallon being a hack is a groundbreaking truth bomb and should call into question all traditional wisdom

 

[JBMAC]

I know bradman chosed tallon in his all time 11.
Ames and gilchrist were far superior batsman,that’s the main reason,they aren’t atg keepers but were atg wicket keeper batsman,Knott was a atg keeper+could bat as well.

In an ATG team you want to play a Stumper .With the batting line-ups available his job is purely and simply to be behind the stumps. He can be a complete "rabbit" with the bat. Besides which IF you really want a batsman/stumper in an ATG team why would you go past Farok Engineer?

 

[JBMAC]

Old field was arguably greatest keeper tho,have seen some of his catches +stumpings it’s incredible,he was called by most of the cricketers who saw him as the greatest even up to 90s,I will choose old field ahead of tallon tbf,if i would choose someone just on the basis of wicket keeping alone my first pick would be old field.
My 4 keepers on the basis of wicket keeping skills alone are-
1.oldfield
2.Russell
3.tallon
4.Knott
As a overall package
1.knott
2.gilchrist
3.ames
4.oldfield

You are going on stats alone here. I have seen the following stumpers play and the top 5 ,in order, are TALLON, GROUT, OLDFIELD,ENGINEER and MACLEAN

 

[JBMAC]

I first wrote this many years ago and had it placed on here in2010. So for all the "newbies" i though it worthy of a reprisal withe The Ashes Series coming up

He strode to the wicket with his side one down,
Not a big man and he had on a frown
Some rated him the best they'd ever seen
but this innings was to prove
The best there has ever been
He hooked the first ball to square leg for four
Then a glance off his pads to fine leg for more
The sun was out on that Brisbane day
I was there at The Gabba and saw Bradman play.

By lunch he was just short of a ton
and the poms had no answer to
To this Aussie son
He'd bashed them, He'd thrashed them
And was looking for more when down came the rain
To help even the score
No one left the Gabba that day just waited in the rain to watch Bradman play

A career that ended in '48
Was dotted with milestones no one can rate
He'd hook them, He'd drive them, then go looking for more
I suppose I was lucky on that Gabba day,
When I sat in the bleachers and saw Bradman play

Copyright JBMAC

 

[Shady Slim]

Ok boomer

this is a supremely cringe post my dude and ought not be dignified with a response, but it's so egregious i might as well do it anyway

jbmac brings more to the forum in one post than you have in your entire 1406 and we are supremely lucky to hear from a bloke who watched bradman play and played with some of the historical greats, who most of us only know from fleeting childhood memories or archival footage... i know that it might be hard for you to, but cmon don't be a flog man

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Edited version of post:

I always look forward to reading JBMAC's interesting posts. There are lots of fascinating anecdotes about players from yesteryear, including the GOAT of cricket.

 

[_00_deathscar]

I’ve deleted the post and apologised to JBMAC

 

[Shady Slim]

I’ve deleted the post and apologised to JBMAC.

sorry if i went in a bit hard on you heh, i do that when the cringe radar goes off in my head - onya though for doing the bigman thing

 

[Starfighter]

In an ATG team you want to play a Stumper .With the batting line-ups available his job is purely and simply to be behind the stumps. He can be a complete "rabbit" with the bat. Besides which IF you really want a batsman/stumper in an ATG team why would you go past Farok Engineer?

You see, I once had a lot of sympathy for this argument, but I don't think it's all that true and you see that when it comes to real-world team selection ever since Ames displaced Duckworth.

And we're not talking about a situation like Jim Parks playing over the numerous significantly higher class keepers in England. You'd have to do some very smooth talking to convince me that, say, Tallon (or even Engineer) is that much better a keeper than Gilchrist that it outweighs the latter's batting value - in any team.

 

[Line and Length]

You are going on stats alone here. I have seen the following stumpers play and the top 5 ,in order, are TALLON, GROUT, OLDFIELD,ENGINEER and MACLEAN

@JBMAC Given your experience, you are far better qualified to rate 'keepers on their skill and ability behind the stumps. We are of a similar generation (though I'm senior to you if you are, as suggested by some on CW, John McLean who played 4 Tests for Oz) and I wonder how you rate some of the English glovemen I have seen. How do you rate Evans, Knott, Russell and Taylor?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

sorry if i went in a bit hard on you heh, i do that when the cringe radar goes off in my head - onya though for doing the bigman thing

I decided to edit my post as well and removed the bit having a crack at deathscar

 

[JBMAC]

@JBMAC Given your experience, you are far better qualified to rate 'keepers on their skill and ability behind the stumps. We are of a similar generation (though I'm senior to you if you are, as suggested by some on CW, John McLean who played 4 Tests for Oz) and I wonder how you rate some of the English glovemen I have seen. How do you rate Evans, Knott, Russell and Taylor?

Godfrey Evans was a very "clean" keeper but i think Knott would rate as one of the best if not the best English stumper

 

[JBMAC]

You see, I once had a lot of sympathy for this argument, but I don't think it's all that true and you see that when it comes to real-world team selection ever since Ames displaced Duckworth.

And we're not talking about a situation like Jim Parks playing over the numerous significantly higher class keepers in England. You'd have to do some very smooth talking to convince me that, say, Tallon (or even Engineer) is that much better a keeper than Gilchrist that it outweighs the latter's batting value - in any team.

As a stumper Gilchrist is below par in comparison to Tallon . Having said that if you are looking for some substantial hitting in the middle of your teams innings the Gilchrist would be my pick as well. It's purely and simply "Horses for Courses"

 

[Bolo.]

Godfrey Evans was a very "clean" keeper but i think Knott would rate as one of the best if not the best English stumper

Sorry for the questions from all sides, but I cant help myself. How much value do you assign to being a 'clean' keeper?. Gilchrist for example wasn't really one, but he dropped almost nothing from what little I saw of him. He did not appear to be a great keeper to the eye, but I can't see how that impacted his effectiveness. At least in terms of catching/stopping. Stumping I have seen better, but that is another issue.

 

[JBMAC]

Sorry for the questions from all sides, but I cant help myself. How much value do you assign to being a 'clean' keeper?. Gilchrist for example wasn't really one, but he dropped almost nothing from what little I saw of him. He did not appear to be a great keeper to the eye, but I can't see how that impacted his effectiveness. At least in terms of catching/stopping. Stumping I have seen better, but that is another issue.

Being a "clean" keeper ensures if a wicket opportunity comes your way then you take it. Gilchrist was not "clean" in this respect but he, like Wayne Phillips had the gloves and scored big in all forms of the game. I am not discounting his effforts as a keeper BUT in an ATG team his services should be as a stumper NOT a batsman. eg: if you take the 1948 Aussie side where is he in that batting order? He still comes in as a #11. What an ATG team needs is just what i said ie: a "clean" keeper.

 

[Nintendo]

Being a "clean" keeper ensures if a wicket opportunity comes your way then you take it. Gilchrist was not "clean" in this respect but he, like Wayne Phillips had the gloves and scored big in all forms of the game. I am not discounting his effforts as a keeper BUT in an ATG team his services should be as a stumper NOT a batsman. eg: if you take the 1948 Aussie side where is he in that batting order? He still comes in as a #11. What an ATG team needs is just what i said ie: a "clean" keeper.

Are you saying Gilly would come in at #11 for the 1948 Aussie side? Is that a "Gilly was a worse bat then everyone else in the team" idea or a "keepers batted at the bottom of the order so Gilly would do the same" situation?

 

[JBMAC]

Are you saying Gilly would come in at #11 for the 1948 Aussie side? Is that a "Gilly was a worse bat then everyone else in the team" idea or a "keepers batted at the bottom of the order so Gilly would do the same" situation?

It's a combination of both BUT don't come back at me with stats as they are not a true indication of players under an ATG scenario

 

[Nintendo]

It's a combination of both BUT don't come back at me with stats as they are not a true indication of players under an ATG scenario

Obviously stats aren't the be all and end all in discussions like this, otherwise charlie turner would be in everyone's ATG teams and trumper would be considered a hack, but post WWII stats have been a fairly good indicator, no?

 

[JBMAC]

Obviously stats aren't the be all and end all in discussions like this, otherwise charlie turner would be in everyone's ATG teams and trumper would be considered a hack, but post WWII stats have been a fairly good indicator, no?

NO