2nd ODI ATXI

Flem274* · Oct 28, 2021

Teja. said:
I remember Maugh being a pretty aggressive batsmen for the 90s so I verified JK's SR during Waugh's career and Kallis has a SR of 69 compared to Waugh's 76 with an average 3 higher. Considering the spectrum of total scores and the fact the SRs was lower back then, that's a very significant difference in SR. Also, the difference in batting position and Waugh playing in the early 90s as well more than explains the slight difference in average. Kallis's SR increased into the 00s.

Also worth noting that Waugh was absolute dynamite in general in World Cups and his SR in them is significantly better despite playing in much lower scoring WCs on average. Kallis had some very slow World cups early on and only has a half ok SR in his last 2 WCs when everyone also who was a decent batsman was scoring much quicker anyway.

Kallis's SR in his first 3 world cups when batting hasn't quite exploded leaves a lot to be desired:

View attachment 29698

Waugh:

View attachment 29699

Overall, Waugh was a far more explosive batsman who delivered more consistently in crucial matches IMO. Consider the 1996 WC where Waugh was Australia's best batsman nearly every match and had one of the greatest world cups ever. Kallis never came close to something like that even in that one decent WC he had in 2006/07.

I'm not arguing Kallis > Waugh, I'm arguing Kallis was good and these chumps pretending he was terrible need to sit down.

Teja. · Oct 28, 2021

The difference between Waugh and Kallis's SR is roughly the same as the difference between between Dippenaar tbf and that is despite the fact that Waugh played his cricket through the 90s where Kallis's SR was in the 60s.

Red · Oct 28, 2021

Flem274* said:
I'm not arguing Kallis > Waugh, I'm arguing Kallis was good and these chumps pretending he was terrible need to sit down.

He was good, but not ATG in LO

TheJediBrah · Oct 28, 2021

Flem274* said:
I'm not arguing Kallis > Waugh, I'm arguing Kallis was good and these chumps pretending he was terrible need to sit down.

you wrong I'm afraid

Jayro · Oct 28, 2021

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Red said:
He was good, but not ATG in LO

Yes possibly, possibly when we really dissect his stats thread by thread and take out some flaws, but add up his bowling to his batting and safe hands in field than he is right up there.

Also not all the odi's back in the day used to be high scoring some used to be low scoring or medium score games, on difficult pitches, against more difficult bowling then these medium pace innings which play sheet anchors roles were so vital it depends upon the context of the game.

If there is a imaginary matchup of the bests in a comparably 90s sort of situation and mindset where you are up against the likes of Mcgrath, Ambrose , Garner, or some unsung misers like Fannie de villiers than there is a role which fits Kallis in an all time eleven, against a bowling attack like that I don't expect anyone to go ablazing eithereither, with a possible exception or two but that too not without huge risks of losing early wickets.

Spark · Oct 28, 2021

ankitj said:
Don't think so. MoMs go to the best performer in the game on either side, with heavy bias (more than justified) towards winning team and towards batting. But within winning side, it rarely goes to anyone other than the most influential player in the game.

Nah it's invariably just the highest run scorer with vanishingly few exceptions. Of all the statistical measures in the game it's probably the worst because of just how hilariously unrigorous the selection process is.

ankitj · Oct 28, 2021

There has been heavy retrospective donwgrade of Kallis post his retirement in ODIs. When he was playing he was the key player for SA most of the times except when they were chasing 320+ which happened rarely in his days than it does today.

ankitj · Oct 28, 2021

Spark said:
Nah it's invariably just the highest run scorer with vanishingly few exceptions.

Because highest scorer is also the biggest influencer generally.

Spark · Oct 28, 2021

ankitj said:
Because highest scorer is also the biggest influencer generally.

This is far from a blanket rule to the extent that you can just attribute them together as often as the MoM award does. Particularly in ODIs.

honestbharani · Oct 28, 2021

Spark said:
Nah it's invariably just the highest run scorer with vanishingly few exceptions. Of all the statistical measures in the game it's probably the worst because of just how hilariously unrigorous the selection process is.

There was an ODI in 1989 (Nehru Cup??) where Viv Richards was awarded MotM for his captaincy. Pretty sure Jonty won it for his fielding more than once at least.

The Sean · Oct 28, 2021

It's hard to beat Cameron Cuffy for this - he was once named Man of the Match in an ODI in which he didn't score a run, take a wicket or hold a catch.

honestbharani · Oct 28, 2021

Kallis often played in a SA side that had excellent bowlers and as such, his role often was to ensure there was no collapse and set the platform from where the likes of Klusener, JOnty and BOucher can launch without worry. And when chasing, he may not have often had very steep chases. So when we compare with the likes of Mark Waugh or even Astle, who also had the advantage of the first 15 overs restrictions (2 catchers + only 2 outside the circle + anything over shoulder is a no ball), it is not always an apples to apples comparison. Once again it comes down to the intangibles or at least the subjective stuff. IMO, Kallis played the role he needed to in that RSA side almost all the time with very good effect.

Now, having said that, I remember around 1998 or 99, Boycott was on commentary once when Kallis was batting and he talked about how Kallis was not taking any risks as he wanted to get his average up. This was mentioned, I think, in a test but I often felt that Kallis was playing less shots and at a lesser tempo than he could with the same levels of success. And there have been times when he seemed handcuffed in tall chases and against certain level of bowling as he just could not score as quickly as needed in those circumstances.

Overall I feel Mark Waugh is the better ODI batsman but Kallis had a certain role to play and I am sure the RSA side of that time will not take Mark Waugh over him, if that makes sense.

The Sean · Oct 28, 2021

As for Kallis, he deserves ODI props at least for one of the greatest innings-break team talks in limited overs history, after Australia had made 434 at Jo'burg in 2006:

"The bowlers have a done a good job, this is a 450 wicket - I think they're 15 runs short."

Spark · Oct 28, 2021

honestbharani said:
There was an ODI in 1989 (Nehru Cup??) where Viv Richards was awarded MotM for his captaincy. Pretty sure Jonty won it for his fielding more than once at least.

Not saying it's never happened but we don't have to think too hard to come up with multiple examples of games in all formats where the MotM award has gone to someone purely on a simple "more is better" and "winners only" basis.

ankitj · Oct 28, 2021

Spark said:
Not saying it's never happened but we don't have to think too hard to come up with multiple examples of games in all formats where the MotM award has gone to someone purely on a simple "more is better" and "winners only" basis.

I can also remember many examples where top scorer didn't get MoM (Dhoni in 2011 world cup final)

honestbharani · Oct 28, 2021

Spark said:
Not saying it's never happened but we don't have to think too hard to come up with multiple examples of games in all formats where the MotM award has gone to someone purely on a simple "more is better" and "winners only" basis.

IN general, you are right but where I disagree is when you say it CANNOT be used as an indicator. For starters, very often in a game the highest scorer or wicket taker usually has the most impact. And there have been enough exceptions to that rule that I feel the MotM awards can be considered to some extent when considering impact of a player on his team or something like that.

TheJediBrah · Oct 28, 2021

Jayro said:
[

Yes possibly, possibly when we really dissect his stats thread by thread and take out some flaws, but add up his bowling to his batting and safe hands in field than he is right up there.

Also not all the odi's back in the day used to be high scoring some used to be low scoring or medium score games, on difficult pitches, against more difficult bowling then these medium pace innings which play sheet anchors roles were so vital it depends upon the context of the game.

If there is a imaginary matchup of the bests in a comparably 90s sort of situation and mindset where you are up against the likes of Mcgrath, Ambrose , Garner, or some unsung misers like Fannie de villiers than there is a role which fits Kallis in an all time eleven, against a bowling attack like that I don't expect anyone to go ablazing eithereither, with a possible exception or two but that too not without huge risks of losing early wickets.

This is revisionist. It's not like on difficult pitches he would make 80 (110) regularly. He would make 10 (35).

ankitj · Oct 28, 2021

TheJediBrah · Oct 28, 2021

Also keep in mind, MOM awards have never had consistent criteria, they change from game to game and person to person. It's just a quick choice, not an in depth statistical analysis.

The Sean · Oct 28, 2021

As it happens, Kallis never actually made 80(110) or 10(35).

He only made 80 once in an ODI, it was unbeaten, and it was a remarkably rapid 80*(59) against Australia.

He made 10 on seven occasions, and they came off - respectively - 15, 27, 15, 24, 25, 14 and 13 deliveries.

Yeah, I should be working.

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