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2nd greatest living cricketer

Who is the 2nd greatest living cricketer (behind Sobers)?


  • Total voters
    74

kyear2

International Coach
You show complete distain for actual real world examples, while claiming elsewhere that 'real world cricket does not work this way'.

The example that started this all is steyn/ mcgrath. Steyn, a crap bat, won a series, not just a test, with the bat. Batting like mcgrath would have meant steyn lost an extra 12.5% of series in his career, not popped the only team they hadntt managed to beat since readmission, and possibly (if admittely unlikely) not got over a mental block of beating AUS.

Outside the real world example, nobody is seriously suggesting picking Steyn over Mcgrath on batting. They are just too close, and if you think Mcgrath is the better bowler/balances the attack better, you pick him. But when it comes to guys like Marshall/Hadlee/Imran, the equation changes a bit. If Steyns batting can swing series, better bats are likely to with much higher frequency.
Could be wrong. Don't think was ever about Steyn vs McGrath. Initially was about McGrath vs Hadlee, where most agreed that Hadlee had greater value. The conversation then evolved to how much would you sacrifice bowling to stack the batting line up above that.

Some believe that Imran is a must due to his batting, others, Including myself disagreed. Reasoning that bowling should be the primary criteria for selection.
And while for many the focus is on how many runs you potentially gain by stacking the tail, it seems inconsequential to some, how many you potentially loose in the bowling end. Not to mention potential opportunities for wickets lost by not going for the best possible attack, at the alter of chasing 25 runs at the end of an innings.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
If McGrath takes 4 wickets per match at 1 run better on average, isn't his bowling only worth 4 runs compared to Khan or Hadlee?

While people bang on about how you pick your best bowler, he is only 1 run better per wicket on average. Hadlee or Khan are going to score, presuming they only get to bat once, 20+ runs per game (maybe half that because they will be facing ATG bowlers. How can a case be made to up the amount of runs McGrath's better average is worth to compensate?

Taking it further, Hadlee is less than a run better than Khan. But Khan is a better bat by 10 runs. If you pick Khan, surely you pick Hadlee. And if you pick Khan, then surely you pick Miller as he could score the same runs on average at the same time he took the wickets at a low average.
 

TheJediBrah

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You show complete distain for actual real world examples, while claiming elsewhere that 'real world cricket does not work this way'.
I didn't say it never happens, just rarely. And that example doesn't really mean a whole lot in this context because it's only one side of the coin. In the very same game Steyn made extra runs, a slightly better bowler could have taken an extra wicket that saved even more runs.

Of course he also might not have. There's no way to accurately put a number to these things and adding up averages doesn't work because, yes, 'real world cricket does not work this way'. For mine though, if your player is going to batting 10 or 11, you always pick the better bowler. Absolutely every time.

edit: however I do respect the opposing view and definitely understand the logic. I strongly believed the exact same thing for quite a while and take me back 5 years ago I'd be arguing it along with you.
 
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Bolo.

International Captain
Could be wrong. Don't think was ever about Steyn vs McGrath. Initially was about McGrath vs Hadlee, where most agreed that Hadlee had greater value. The conversation then evolved to how much would you sacrifice bowling to stack the batting line up above that.

Some believe that Imran is a must due to his batting, others, Including myself disagreed. Reasoning that bowling should be the primary criteria for selection.
And while for many the focus is on how many runs you potentially gain by stacking the tail, it seems inconsequential to some, how many you potentially loose in the bowling end. Not to mention potential opportunities for wickets lost by not going for the best possible attack, at the alter of chasing 25 runs at the end of an innings.
I joined in the converstation to respond to idea that you can free carry a crap bat at 11, and I used your 2 hypothetical bowling lineups, which featured mcgath and steyn at 11 as examples.

You dont rate Imrans bowling very highly. Dont use him as an example. Pick someone like Marshall or Hadlee whose bowling you think is fairly compable to Mcgrath.
 

TheJediBrah

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What I hear tjb saying is always pick Murali over Warne
lol this isn't the gotcha post you think it is. I've literally said basically that already in this exact thread:
If you think Murali is a better bowler than Warne he should be picked regardless of batting. Now fielding is another matter, I think if anything fielding is underrated in these comparisons. But Warne wasn't even a good fielder so doesn't matter there either.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I joined in the converstation to respond to idea that you can free carry a crap bat at 11, and I used your 2 hypothetical bowling lineups, which featured mcgath and steyn at 11 as examples.

You dont rate Imrans bowling very highly. Dont use him as an example. Pick someone like Marshall or Hadlee whose bowling you think is fairly compable to Mcgrath.
But I have. And I have said that Hadlee deserves a place over McGrath because they are comparable bowlers.

And it's not that I don't rate Imran's bowling highly, I just don't have him in that absolute top tier.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
What I hear tjb saying is always pick Murali over Warne
lol this isn't the gotcha post you think it is. I've literally said basically that already in this exact thread:
It is a gotcha, just not on the person he was intending it for.

Ive argued in the past that warne is the equal of murali cos of his batting. Im also saying we should mostly ignore the gap between steyn and mcgraths batting and just pick the better bowler. The gap in batting is similar.
 

kyear2

International Coach
If McGrath takes 4 wickets per match at 1 run better on average, isn't his bowling only worth 4 runs compared to Khan or Hadlee?

While people bang on about how you pick your best bowler, he is only 1 run better per wicket on average. Hadlee or Khan are going to score, presuming they only get to bat once, 20+ runs per game (maybe half that because they will be facing ATG bowlers. How can a case be made to up the amount of runs McGrath's better average is worth to compensate?

Taking it further, Hadlee is less than a run better than Khan. But Khan is a better bat by 10 runs. If you pick Khan, surely you pick Hadlee. And if you pick Khan, then surely you pick Miller as he could score the same runs on average at the same time he took the wickets at a low average.
But that's the thing, cricket isn't played on a spreadsheet. Just because he averaged 37, doesn't mean he scores that every innings. Just because one bowler average 2 runs per wickets less, that what's they would allow.
You want the best possible bowlers to create the most opportunities, you have 7 gentlemen whose primary job it is to score runs. Yes, runs by the tail can be important, but so is bowling out the opposition as cheaply as possible.

Smali asked if Imran wasn't in the same ball park as McGrath. No, neither to most is Wasim, or Donald . McGrath is unarguably a top 4 fast bowler and probably one of only 2 or 3 in the discussion as being the greatest ever. That's not where any of the aforementioned persons are. So why go outside if that group to select someone whose primary role is to bowl.
The higher in level of competition you go, and the further down the batting line up you go, there's a question of diminishing returns. Especially if it's not your primary skill. One you drop below that 50 threshold, you're not an ATG bat, below 40 is even more so. How will they be faring vs ATG attacks.

As I've said before, it's a matter of priorities and selection philosophy. I believe you try to get a varied attack, if one of them can bat pretty decently, added bonus. As I've conceded, if McGrath is a top 3 bowler, Hadlee is at worst a top 4, so there's no loss there, and he's so much better with the bat. But I stay within what I see as my op tier to make these decisions.
Your philosophy is that what Imran gives with the bat, is worth any drop off with the ball, and you are willing to over look better bowlers to select him. I'm not.

So we can just agree to disagree.
 

trundler

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Barnes was good against Australia but feasted heavily on some of the worst sides to ever take a cricket field. Great bowler but I'll still have the bloke who came out on top against just about every elite batsman he came up against. And he did it in the roadiest era ever. To me he's significantly better than anyone not named Malcolm Marshall.
 

Pap Finn Keighl

International Debutant
2000-09

Murali averaged 21
Warne, Donald and Pollock 25
Steyn 24
Akthar and Bond 22
Walsh 20
Ambrose 18

Even post prime Waquar managed 28.

Averaging 21 is great, nothing out of the world though. Especially when you are playing for the super dominant team.
 

trundler

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Murali is the GOAT spinner but let's not pretend that 21 average isn't heavily inflated. The others are samplesizelol. Ambrose retired in 2000 ffs.
 
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