2nd greatest living cricketer

[_00_deathscar]

SR fairly normal compared to other top specialist wicket takers of the era apart from Trueman who was a freak. It's worse than the best pacers but better than the best spinners which fits the type of bowler Sobers was. He was the fifth highest taker over such a long period where also averaged 63 with the bat in the middle order and there are plenty of great specialist bowlers with worse strike rates among bowlers who've taken 50+ wickets in the period.

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What are the batting comparisons like for that period?

 

[kyear2]

I've put forward the hypothetical before as to whether picking Mark Waugh over Sachin Tendulkar would make a stronger team. I don't necessarily think it would but depending on the rest of the team and where/how well they can field you could make an argument.

I don't even think we have to go to those extremes. A Greg Chappell, Wally Hammond, Jacques Kallis, AB deVilliers, Bobby Simpson.

And remember you already have Sobers at 2nd

 

[kyear2]

This has been previously and extensively litigated, and most disagree. But I believe Sobers is the most over rated of the ATGs. The disparity of his home and away record makes 0 sense considering his home conditions and clearly speaks to the patriotic umpiring. He had an average difference of 17 (!) between his home and away record. That's pretty bad. Clearly an unfair home advantage afaic.

Home pitches in the Caribbean were flat as hell, so did make sense. Plus everyone who saw him said he was the best since Bradman, but have at it.

I was asked a question and I gave my honest response, you don't have to agree, and I said that most don't. But everyone one knew about the Pakistan umpires, most just choose to forget or ignore.

If as a bowler in that era and you averaged less in those conditions than even in England, something doesn't add up. My response was neither malicious nor petty... I'll say no more.

 

[honestbharani]

For my ATG attack, I would go Wasim over Imran coz left arm variety.

Marshall Wasim Murali and someone to bowl genuinely fast. With Sobers in there, this attack balances pretty much perfectly IMO across conditions and situations.

 

[Bolo.]

While I fully agree with you here, I think the only exception to that would be Hadlee vs McGrath.

They are somewhat similar in style and effectiveness and while I have McGrath either 2nd or 3rd all time, Hadlee is 4th and just a half tier behind. And he does offer somewhat more with the bat.

I also agree with your premise of being even 1% better, and that's not something that's mathematically quantifiable. But a bowlers that's even a smidge better could make a breakthrough when someone else wouldn't.

And not to prolong the point, but as you said, to pick a guy who averages 10 runs more, doesn't factor in if it would even be needed or if they perform that one time when actually needed.

It could be argued that extra batting should only really factor in when looking at that no. 8 spot and only at the expense of the 4th bowler?

Following through with this reasoning outside this context will lead to picking the highest SR bowlers/bowlers who could bowl the most overs/ bowlers who were the most threatening in unfavourable conditions instead of the potentially better ones.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Following through with this reasoning outside this context will lead to picking the highest SR bowlers/bowlers who could bowl the most overs/ bowlers who were the most threatening in unfavourable conditions instead of the potentially better ones.

Not necessarily, because there are more factors with high SR bowlers with loose bowling like giving more scoring shots, releasing pressure on batsmen, spreading fields, momentum/confidence of batsmen etc.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

For my ATG attack, I would go Wasim over Imran coz left arm variety.

Marshall Wasim Murali and someone to bowl genuinely fast. With Sobers in there, this attack balances pretty much perfectly IMO across conditions and situations.

I thought your ATG attack would be 10 allrounders (plus a wicketkeeper). Watson would bowl some seamers and Katich to spin a few.

 

[trundler]

I thought your ATG attack would be 10 allrounders (plus a wicketkeeper). Watson would bowl some seamers and Katich to spin a few.

Katich
Watson
Lara
Sobers
Shakib
Miller
Dhoni
Imran
Hadlee
Pollock
Ashwin

 

[Bolo.]

Not necessarily, because there are more factors with high SR bowlers with loose bowling like giving more scoring shots, releasing pressure on batsmen, spreading fields, momentum/confidence of batsmen etc.

Ya, fair. These may contribute to taking wickets. But clearly not nearly as much as actually taking wickets if breakthroughs are your priority.

 

[subshakerz]

For my ATG attack, I would go Wasim over Imran coz left arm variety.

Marshall Wasim Murali and someone to bowl genuinely fast. With Sobers in there, this attack balances pretty much perfectly IMO across conditions and situations.

Exactly what is 'left arm variety' that gives it such an edge over other right arm ATGs? Is it just to have a change of angle? I can see the case for having a specialist seamer or reverser, but I dont think in itself having a left armer is necessary, especially since you have Sobers who gives left arm pace and spin.

 

[ataraxia]

Katich
Watson
Lara
Sobers
Shakib
Miller
Dhoni
Imran
Hadlee
Pollock
Ashwin

where's the random #11 who averages 5 with bat and is a meh bowler? the Adcock, the Bumrah?

where's de Villiers keeping and sinking the draft side?

where's the crap left-arm wrist-spinner? the Shamsi, the Kuldeep, the Compton?

where's the idiosyncratic batting order?

and where the **** are the three As: Aubrey Faulkner, Alan Davidson, and Aravinda de Silva?

Katich
Watson
Lara
Aravinda
de Villiers
Faulkner
Miller
Imran
Sobers
Davidson
Shamsi

apologies for no alternating left- and right-handers



edit: *goes to next tab* *first new post: hb bidding for Faulkner*

 

[Daemon]

Exactly what is 'left arm variety' that gives it such an edge over other right arm ATGs? Is it just to have a change of angle? I can see the case for having a specialist seamer or reverser, but I dont think in itself having a left armer is necessary, especially since you have Sobers who gives left arm pace and spin.

Some batsmen have weaknesses or are less strong against certain type of bowling so having variety can help.

Creating footmarks might help (or hurt tbf) as well.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Home pitches in the Caribbean were flat as hell, so did make sense. Plus everyone who saw him said he was the best since Bradman, but have at it

Yeah exactly quite a big advantage to play a big chunk of your games on roads. It's surprising how little that much of a home vs away disparity is talked about. Can't think of another player with such a big reputation having such a lopsided record. 17 avg difference is humongous.

 

[Teja.]

Exactly what is 'left arm variety' that gives it such an edge over other right arm ATGs? Is it just to have a change of angle? I can see the case for having a specialist seamer or reverser, but I dont think in itself having a left armer is necessary, especially since you have Sobers who gives left arm pace and spin.

G Smith, probably the best opener of the last 30 years had a famous weakness against left arm pace.

 

[honestbharani]

Exactly what is 'left arm variety' that gives it such an edge over other right arm ATGs? Is it just to have a change of angle? I can see the case for having a specialist seamer or reverser, but I dont think in itself having a left armer is necessary, especially since you have Sobers who gives left arm pace and spin.

Wasim is left arm pace, Sobers is left arm medium pace. And the variety it gives you is footmarks outside offstump of both type of batsmen for the spinners to aim at, later in the game. And he gives me almost similar levels of reverse swing as Imran. Typically speaking, the more ways you can challenge a batsman as a bowling attack, the better your chances.

 

[Teja.]

This has been previously and extensively litigated, and most disagree. But I believe KW is the most over rated of the fab 4. The disparity of his home and away record makes 0 sense considering his home conditions and clearly speaks to the patriotic umpiring. He had an average difference of 14 (!) between his home and away record. That's pretty bad. Clearly an unfair home advantage afaic.

The difference is actually 24 ftr.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah exactly quite a big advantage to play a big chunk of your games on roads. It's surprising how little that much of a home vs away disparity is talked about. Can't think of another player with such a big reputation having such a lopsided record. 17 avg difference is humongous.

Kane Williamson - difference of 20
Virat Kohli - difference of 21

 

[Burgey]

 

[TheJediBrah]

Burgey how do you reckon he'll celebrate his dayboo ton

 

[sunilz]

Kane Williamson - difference of 20
Virat Kohli - difference of 21

We don't consider any of these 2 batsman as top 5 test bats. More like top 20/25