Time Changes Perception

[Line and Length]

One of the interesting aspects I have found since joining CW is how the perception of certain cricketers has changed over the years. I think it is more than just a generational aspect as it is natural that members are going to view players that they have witnessed first hand in a more positive light than players from an earlier era. An example of this is how Dennis Lillee is regarded by some. I vividly remember him at his prime - especially his clashes with another great in Viv Richards. However, it would seem that Richards is still regarded as a batsman in the upper echelon when it comes to ATGs. On the other hand, Lillee seems to have slipped down below many more recent quicks who, in my opinion, are not in his class.
The debate about great all-rounders is also interesting when looking at then and now. Back in the '80s, opinions were divided as to who was the greatest all-rounder (after Sobers of course). Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Ian Botham were all mentioned in the same breath and opinions were very much divided. Now, looking back, Imran and Hadlee are regarded far more highly than either Dev or Botham. Is this because of averages and other statistics compared with first hand observations?
Of course, there are greats from the past whose reputations never change. Bradman is the obvious example.
I could list numerous cricketers who made a big impression when I saw them. In hindsight I may have been too impressionable with some but others I have seen are now definitely under-rated when it comes to discussions on CW (and selections in drafts ).

 

[ma1978]

I think as time passes, people rely on statistics without having the full context. For the allrounders, people see the shiny Imran and Hadlee averages. Ita forgotten that Botham was arguably the greatest performer of all time for a six year period, or all that Kapil accomplished as literally a sole proproetior with the ball and as a ridiculous bat. No one in the 1980s thought Imran was close to Kapil or Botham as a bat regardless of what the averages said.

I also think contemporary accounts matter. Viv has Sachin and othera regard him as the GOAT and that matters as well.

CW also attracts a more nerdy stats obsessed demographic

 

[Lillian Thomson]

It’s mainly the availability of statsguru that enables the careers of players to be sliced and diced that has changed perceptions.

 

[fredfertang]

The main problem that everyone much younger than 60 has is that the poor bastards never saw Garry Sobers in his pomp

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The main problem that everyone much younger than 60 has is that the poor bastards never saw Garry Sobers in his pomp

The only innings I saw (almost) in full on TV was his 150 at Lords in 1973. A great innings to watch by any definition, but then the scorecard shows Bernard Julien also made 120 odd, so it must have been a flat wicket and crap bowling.

 

[Aritro]

I think as time passes, people rely on statistics without having the full context. For the allrounders, people see the shiny Imran and Hadlee averages. Ita forgotten that Botham was arguably the greatest performer of all time for a six year period, or all that Kapil accomplished as literally a sole proproetior with the ball and as a ridiculous bat. No one in the 1980s thought Imran was close to Kapil or Botham as a bat regardless of what the averages said.

I also think contemporary accounts matter. Viv has Sachin and othera regard him as the GOAT and that matters as well.

CW also attracts a more nerdy stats obsessed demographic

Very interesting. I agree Botham's incredible peak has been obscured by the damage inflicted on his numbers by his later years, when he was an enthusiastic ambassador for British pies but I didn't know Kapil's batting was so highly regarded at the time.

 

[ma1978]

there’s not a lot of footage but Kapil played ridiculous innings against great attackes

there’s the one above

then there’s the run a ball century and 98 in the Windies in 1983 to save two tests against holding, Marshall and Roberts

A 109 for a very rare test win against the Windies in Delhi

129 against prime Allan Donald in Port Elizabeth when the rest of the team crumbled

he was a Ben stokes with the bat whose stats bely impact. All the while carrying India’s bowling singlehandedly. It’s not even like India had great spinners in the 1980s.

the stats make him look like an average trier. He was anything but

 

[The Battlers Prince]

From what I’ve been told by the people who saw them play live, I get the impression Sobers was more like Ali’s float like a butterfly sting like a bee, to Viv’s Foreman like brute power.

The other thing to say is when I talk to people who saw the ‘80s allrounders, Kapil was the best of them as a genuine all rounder. I always find it hard to gauge having not seen the matches before the ‘90s.

 

[fredfertang]

The mistake that Botham made, and to an extent Kapil as well, was not recognising that a time came when they were only going to trouble decent batsman when everything was in their favour - if they'd read the writing on the wall and concentrated on their batting they both had the technique to have been great batsmen

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

there’s not a lot of footage but Kapil played ridiculous innings against great attackes

there’s the one above

then there’s the run a ball century and 98 in the Windies in 1983 to save two tests against holding, Marshall and Roberts

A 109 for a very rare test win against the Windies in Delhi

129 against prime Allan Donald in Port Elizabeth when the rest of the team crumbled

he was a Ben stokes with the bat whose stats bely impact. All the while carrying India’s bowling singlehandedly. It’s not even like India had great spinners in the 1980s.

the stats make him look like an average trier. He was anything but

Run a ball centyry against a 4 ATG attack ?

In 80s, Kapil Dev was the best ODI batsman (also Best bowler and Best fielder ) of Indian team. At least by ranking.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If you haven't seen a player live, stats are most of what you have to go off. Or at least for most people.

It’s mainly the availability of statsguru that enables the careers of players to be sliced and diced that has changed perceptions.

I've come to notice that it's usually the same posters that do this here (to be clear, not necessarily the same nationality), and it's always a clear attempt to suit a predetermined conclusion. Bringing up "Lillee's record in Asia" as if it's a relevant point should be infractionable.

 

[ma1978]

The mistake that Botham made, and to an extent Kapil as well, was not recognising that a time came when they were only going to trouble decent batsman when everything was in their favour - if they'd read the writing on the wall and concentrated on their batting they both had the technique to have been great batsmen

I agree to an extent, but it was only in the year or so before he retired that Kapil was not the best fast bowler in India. He added value even when he was way past his prime. its one of the reasons I disagree with knocking on players for playing past their peak; if they were adding value to "their team", its a plus not a minus

There may have been more capable replacements for Botham TBF.

 

[CricAddict]

Walsh is another who is highly under-rated just like Kapil Dev.

500+ wickets at an average of 24, highly economical, bowled tirelessly at the same pace every match for so many overs and carried the team's burden during tough times.

But never rated here among the top pace bowlers.

 

[Blenkinsop]

There may have been more capable replacements for Botham TBF.

No... no there really, really weren't.

As the England selectors amply proved over and over again.

 

[Line and Length]

Walsh is another who is highly under-rated just like Kapil Dev.

500+ wickets at an average of 24, highly economical, bowled tirelessly at the same pace every match for so many overs and carried the team's burden during tough times.

But never rated here among the top pace bowlers.

True. From an earlier decade Bedser and Statham fit into a similar category. Both held the world record at a time when fewer tests were played. Both were held in high regard for their stamina and accuracy and, like Walsh, both averaged under 25.

 

[AndrewB]

No... no there really, really weren't.

As the England selectors amply proved over and over again.

You think Botham was in England's best pace attack towards the end of his career? His average from 1986 onwards was 45. (And his batting average was 24, so it wasn't as if he was worth a place in the side for his batting and so in effect a "free" extra bowler).

 

[Blenkinsop]

True, but England's selectors were intent on finding an all-rounder to replace Botham and they dug up some absolute horrors. Chris Cowdrey for example.

 

[TheJediBrah]

True, but England's selectors were intent on finding an all-rounder to replace Botham and they dug up some absolute horrors. Chris Cowdrey for example.

Some similiarites between this and Australia's search for a magical spinner post-Warne. When you've been spoilt for so long you refuse to accept a lower standard of replacement. There are divorce laws because of this

 

[CricAddict]

Some similiarites between this and Australia's search for a magical spinner post-Warne. When you've been spoilt for so long you refuse to accept a lower standard of replacement. There are divorce laws because of this

India's search for an all-rounder after Kapil is still going on. Prabhakar, Irfan Pathan and now Hardik. So far none worthy.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I thought the point of the original post on the subject of Botham/Dev was that when Botham was being selected way past his sell by date there were team selection alternatives that might have made England stronger. Whereas in Dev’s case he was still worthy of a place in the side even when on the slide.