Official NZ in Bangladesh (5 T20s)

[The Hutt Rec]

Commentary has been unbearable but won't grudge BD celebrating this win and the other recent ones. ROW forgetting this took place 2 weeks later will probably happen, but that's exactly the sort of Big 3 Mentality which kiwi fans would do well to steer clear of IMO.

It’s not a big 3 thing, I don’t remember any t20 series two weeks later, and I can’t say I think any t20 result is historic … maybe a world t20 final win, but then again I couldn’t tell you who’s won all of those.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Every damn game is a historic moment for them, that’s what I’ve noticed.

First game: “This is another historic win over an overseas side for Bangladesh!”

Third game: “This is a historic win on Bangladesh soil for NZ!”

Fourth game: “This is a historic series win for Bangladesh!”

Rest of the world: has forgotten the series even took place two weeks later

lol its basically athar ali khan who somehow manages to make every game(only winner) a historical one. I’m basically sick and tired of this.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

lol its basically athar ali khan who somehow manages to make every game(only winner) a historical one. I’m basically sick and tired of this.

Yes plus not every single match or moment is historic lol … that was my main point!

 

[Flem274*]

As an Indian who is a great fan of Kiwi cricket, I have two queries that I am just wondering about out loud - When will NZ have a good overseas record in Asia & when will they learn to play spin? Barring Kane Williamson, Ross Taylor, Tom Latham & W Young to some extent, the others are mostly at sea against quality spin. No doubt, the pitches in Bangladesh were more than helpful for the spinners but it was very disappointing to see the batters perform the way they did. Historically also, we don't see them producing too many spinners, Daniel Vettori being a quality exception.

Hey bro, welcome to the forum.

Series win against Pakistan in the UAE and the admittedly frustrating drawn contest with SL are a solid improvement from historical results. Two guys you didn't mention - Henry Nicholls and BJ Watling - were vital in the UAE.

As to why it is such a steep learning curve, bowling spin in New Zealand is a miserable experience. Ajaz Patel and Will Somerville are quite solid test spinners who were both crucial to the Pakistan series win and the SL test win, but even someone as good as Ajaz averages 30+ in NZ FC and if you remove the Australian FC results from Somerville's record I suspect it would look similar. Ravindra and McConchie are both very useful in Bangladesh, but their FC bowling averages are nothing special.

You get about two games at the end of the season here where the spinners matter. Outside of that time, they're useless except as holding bowlers.

Will Young (and Rachin Ravindra) are reasonable against spin because they played for NZ A against Pakistan A in the UAE while the test series was also on. It was actually Ravindra's FC debut.

NZ have an opportunity to gain more credibility in Indian conditions soon. I think we will get wiped off the park by a combination of the Indian spinners and not being able to prey on the Indian middle order vulnerability to pace and swing as effectively as NZ can elsewhere but hopefully it is a good series. I'm not holding my breath though.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Yes plus not every single match or moment is historic lol … that was my main point!

he took the meaning of historic to a whole new level

 

[Kippax]

Will Young (and Rachin Ravindra) are reasonable against spin because they played for NZ A against Pakistan A in the UAE while the test series was also on. It was actually Ravindra's FC debut.

Also a Debu Banik influence is worth mentioning re: Young (his early years Taranaki coach).

 

[Kippax]

 

[Flem274*]

Hearing Debu Banik's name takes me back a bit. Never met him because I suck at cricket, but he was always well regarded.

Awesome of Young to found that trust as well. Cool to see Marfell getting some gear, will be good for the wider Spotswood area. The fastest bowler I ever faced played for Spotswood College (he was a natural athlete in general), but their side was always battling because they had the one side so the goober kids and the sports kids were in the same team.

 

[pomnotenglish]

Hello all,
Seems I have ruffled some kiwi feathers with my debut comment in the group. So let me try to put things straight. I think when I said that Kiwi batsmen were not good against spin I am coming from an Indian perspective. More like the " Indians play spin in their sleep" perspective. So when a New Zealander for example, might find Mitch Santner a very good spin bowler, he might seem ok /alright to me simply based on the quality of spinners I see in India. Similarly, someone from Pakistan or Australia might rate M. Siraj as an 'alright' pacer because they might be used to seeing more pace bowlers or better pacers naturally in their home countries. Similarly, batsman X might be seen as a very good player of spin by an NZlander but I might see the same batsman as inadequate. Bottom line is that I think our perspectives might be different based on where we come from.
As @Flem274* and others have so kindly explained too, it is basically about the conditions in the home countries. At the same time, I feel the sign of very good players is how they adapt to different conditions across the globe. Indian teams struggled with swing and seam till recently. Even now, they are not at the top but doing a pretty good job of it. These are things that time and of course can't develop overnight but as with others, I hope the NZ team will also do well when they come to India.
P.S. @Flem274* Yes, I did miss Watling & Nicholls. My bad.

 

[pomnotenglish]

Btw, just because I am from India please do not assume that my favourite team is also the Indian cricket team. My favourite during my growing years used to be West Indies but I gave up on them a few years ago. I don't have any hopes for them. My current favourite since the last few years is the NZ team.

 

[Kippax]

It's a bit of an unknown for all of us whether there is some kind of pitch composition that could be devised to make a final day's play or a fourth innings more of a source of great confidence for our spinners, also a chance for truly expert players of spin to put their name up in lights. It's been proven we can create a few 'aim for 150' pitches with lots of turn for our domestic T20 in January, but they're not enjoyed much by the young players or the local fans.

For now, one or two Kiwis might be looking at England and the decade they've just had with the Jeetan Patels and Simon Harmers to the fore, but they're thinking "what was the point in tilting the local game away from one's strengths, if there still aren't any brilliant English spinners to show for it? Don't let a pursuit of all-round perfection become the enemy of the good."

 

[Flem274*]

That's actually my biggest worry with the Dukaburra. You only need to look at the state of County Cricket to see why it's nuts to give teams an eternally swinging mega-ball on decks already more sporting than test pitches.

The duke going from indie internet snob favourite to mainstream appeal is a Bad Thing for the nations thinking of shifting from the ball that replicates actual test match conditions and gives Australia an inherent advantage in all Ashes contests.

 

[Kippax]

The Plunket Shield does need something that marks it out as a wholly different proposition from the ball-striking overkill of December-February, though. It's just a shame that role may never be filled by final day pitches, with really tense and hard-fought run chases of around 200-300.

 

[Bahnz]

There were some really good late season day 4 pitches 5 or 6 years ago (see Ajaz's stats). I remember a classic India/Australia style game being played at McLean park back in 2014 when Latham scored a big double ton in the first half of the game and then Tastle took 6 or 7 3rd innings wickets on a scuffed up surface to wrap up a win. It can happen, but with elbowing of the Shield to the margins of the season it becomes less and less likely. March is still a good time of the year for those kinds of surfaces, just need the groundsmen to steer clear of always taking the "test wickets on crack" approach. That extra day in tests will bring the spinners in at some venues anyway (see Mt Maunganui) so would be good to see more "Day 2 test" wickets in the Plunket Shield.

 

[straw man]

That's actually my biggest worry with the Dukaburra. You only need to look at the state of County Cricket to see why it's nuts to give teams an eternally swinging mega-ball on decks already more sporting than test pitches.

The duke going from indie internet snob favourite to mainstream appeal is a Bad Thing for the nations thinking of shifting from the ball that replicates actual test match conditions and gives Australia an inherent advantage in all Ashes contests.

Probably wishful thinking but I really hope Williams' and Sheat's very-mediums aren't the top of the wicket list this domestic season, with part-time seamers like Mitchell and Solia also dominating. Would be a fine indicator of the ball/conditions problem and especially unhelpful when we have several very promising early 20ish batsmen learning their FC game at the moment.

 

[straw man]

It's a bit of an unknown for all of us whether there is some kind of pitch composition that could be devised to make a final day's play or a fourth innings more of a source of great confidence for our spinners, also a chance for truly expert players of spin to put their name up in lights. It's been proven we can create a few 'aim for 150' pitches with lots of turn for our domestic T20 in January, but they're not enjoyed much by the young players or the local fans.

For now, one or two Kiwis might be looking at England and the decade they've just had with the Jeetan Patels and Simon Harmers to the fore, but they're thinking "what was the point in tilting the local game away from one's strengths, if there still aren't any brilliant English spinners to show for it? Don't let a pursuit of all-round perfection become the enemy of the good."

We can already ask ourselves whether the four* consecutive seasons where conditions were spin-friendly enough that spinners topped the Plunket Shield wicket charts actually helped our spin bowlers, and perhaps by extension some batsmen too.
A. Patel - the only unequivocal yes
Tastle - probably yes, though unfortunately got injured at the wrong time, retired and now we'll never know if he had more to offer
Sodhi - topped the charts one season but is still nothing like a test bowler
Santner - did not partake
Nethula - second highest wicket taker twice but then retired

So, a minor success.

* edited after looking this up. It was:
18/19: 1st Sodhi
17/18: 1st Ajaz, 4th Jeets
16/17: 1st Ajaz, 2nd Nethula, 3rd Sodhi, 5th Tastle
15/16: 1st Ajaz, 2nd Nethula, 4th Tastle
Also both 13/14 and 14/15: 2nd Tastle

And then the trend finished - both 19/20 and 20/21 the highest spin bowler was 7th.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

We can already ask ourselves whether the four* consecutive seasons where conditions were spin-friendly enough that spinners topped the Plunket Shield wicket charts actually helped our spin bowlers, and perhaps by extension some batsmen too.
A. Patel - the only unequivocal yes
Tastle - probably yes, though unfortunately got injured at the wrong time, retired and now we'll never know if he had more to offer
Sodhi - topped the charts one season but is still nothing like a test bowler
Santner - did not partake
Nethula - second highest wicket taker twice but then retired

So, a minor success.

* edited after looking this up. It was:
18/19: 1st Sodhi
17/18: 1st Ajaz, 4th Jeets
16/17: 1st Ajaz, 2nd Nethula, 3rd Sodhi, 5th Tastle
15/16: 1st Ajaz, 2nd Nethula, 4th Tastle
Also both 13/14 and 14/15: 2nd Tastle

And then the trend finished - both 19/20 and 20/21 the highest spin bowler was 7th.

Based on that, it’s a shame it took so long for Ajaz to get a decent shot.

Still dunno how Sodhi managed that 18/19 season.

 

[Mike5181]

Based on that, it’s a shame it took so long for Ajaz to get a decent shot.

Still dunno how Sodhi managed that 18/19 season.

It's not surprising when you look at Sodhi's record:

2013/14: 14 wickets @ 37.85 ER 3.68
2014/15: 21 wickets @ 42.23 ER 3.55
2015/16: 22 wickets @ 29.22 ER 4.27
2016/17: 40 wickets @ 25.92 ER 3.46
2017/18: 28 wickets @ 13.92 ER 2.42
2018/19: 36 wickets @ 24.97 ER 2.85
2019/20: 3 wickets @ 80 ER 4.37
2020/21: 17 wickets @ 28.29 ER 2.83

 

[The Hutt Rec]

It's not surprising when you look at Sodhi's record:

2013/14: 14 wickets @ 37.85 ER 3.68
2014/15: 21 wickets @ 42.23 ER 3.55
2015/16: 22 wickets @ 29.22 ER 4.27
2016/17: 40 wickets @ 25.92 ER 3.46
2017/18: 28 wickets @ 13.92 ER 2.42
2018/19: 36 wickets @ 24.97 ER 2.85
2019/20: 3 wickets @ 80 ER 4.37
2020/21: 17 wickets @ 28.29 ER 2.83

I remember quoting his Plunket Shield stats a few times on here in support of him getting another shot in the test side … then he did and I saw the trash he was bowling.

 

[SteveNZ]

lol its basically athar ali khan who somehow manages to make every game(only winner) a historical one. I’m basically sick and tired of this.

I listened to the commentary in the highlights today and it made me giggle. Basically every shot that anyone got out to was horribly bad, and any positive shot that resulted in runs was outstandingly good.