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*Official* Second Test at Lord's - Aug 12-16 2021

Bijed

Bijed

International Regular
Uppercut said:
Drift comes from the revs too though.

I would have said Swann got more revs than Panesar. Gave it a proper tweak for an offie.
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Yeah, tbf Swann could get a lot of turn (ask Imran Farhat). I'm probably making the mistake of thinking Monty got more because that was all he ever tried to do, when that was actually exactly the criticism I was levelling at him.
 
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Uppercut

Uppercut

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Bijed said:
Yeah, tbf Swann could get a long of turn (ask Imran Farhat). I'm probably making the mistake of thinking Monty got more because that was all he ever tried to do, when that was actually exactly the criticism I was levelling at him.
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Coming back to your general point, you are of course right that there's more to spin bowling than ripping it hard and landing it in the right place.

I just think the difference is that, whereas cricket fans and pundits tend to overrate the importance of pace in fast bowling, they tend to underrate the importance of revs in spin bowling. And I think that partly explains why Jadeja has now taken almost as many wickets as Bedi did, with daylight between their averages, despite looking like a much worse bowler. Only partly, there are lots of other factors, I have no strong opinion on Bedi, etc. etc.
 
Bijed

Bijed

International Regular
Uppercut said:
Coming back to your general point, you are of course right that there's more to spin bowling than ripping it hard and landing it in the right place.

I just think the difference is that, whereas cricket fans and pundits tend to overrate the importance of pace in fast bowling, they tend to underrate the importance of revs in spin bowling. And I think that partly explains why Jadeja has now taken almost as many wickets as Bedi did, with daylight between their averages, despite looking like a much worse bowler. Only partly, there are lots of other factors, I have no strong opinion on Bedi, etc. etc.
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Yeah, I think if I had to come up with a soundbite on spin bowling, it'd be along the lines of "You don't have to turn every ball a long way, but the batsmen has to be worried that you might."
 
Manee

Manee

Cricketer Of The Year
Uppercut said:
Coming back to your general point, you are of course right that there's more to spin bowling than ripping it hard and landing it in the right place.

I just think the difference is that, whereas cricket fans and pundits tend to overrate the importance of pace in fast bowling, they tend to underrate the importance of revs in spin bowling. And I think that partly explains why Jadeja has now taken almost as many wickets as Bedi did, with daylight between their averages, despite looking like a much worse bowler. Only partly, there are lots of other factors, I have no strong opinion on Bedi, etc. etc.
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I think pace is very important as you go below 125kph or exceed 150kph but before that, it rarely feels hugely significant in Test cricket.

With spin, it feels drift and dip are so very important. It really can induce a foolish-looking shot like the far outside off stump push and edge to slip or the fall-over nudge to leg-slip.

Jadeja is a fascinating bowler because he looks worse than part time when not taking wickets but somehow does take them fairly regularly.
 
Uppercut

Uppercut

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Manee said:
I think pace is very important as you go below 125kph or exceed 150kph but before that, it rarely feels hugely significant in Test cricket.

With spin, it feels drift and dip are so very important. It really can induce a foolish-looking shot like the far outside off stump push and edge to slip or the fall-over nudge to leg-slip.

Jadeja is a fascinating bowler because he looks worse than part time when not taking wickets but somehow does take them fairly regularly.
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I thought Jadeja looked part time when he first came on the scene, but watching him in this series he looks like a proper spin bowler now. Not 200 wickets @ 24 good, but certainly test quality. He really doesn't bowl many bad balls.
 
wpdavid

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Uppercut said:
(Re. Bedi vs Jadeja) I'd be pretty surprised if you can find anyone who's seen both and doesn't think Bedi was better. He looked sooo much better.

It'd be interesting to hear what they're like to play against. Nobody has much respect for flat, pacy spinners, but a lot of batsmen really don't enjoy facing them either.
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I must be honest about having no idea that Jadeja had 200 test wickets at 24 when I first chipped into this discussion, so it's closer than I thought it would be. I think Bedi has about 260 at 28 fwiw, but obviously it's not simply about averages. A quick look at Jadeja's test matches suggests that he's played most of his in the SC, whereas Bedi played in all of India's away matches. Other variables are Jadeja benefiting from DRS, but Bedi benefiting from India's home-town umpires in the 1960s and 1970s.
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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Not sure I'd take Jadeja pver Bedi as a bowler at all. He's tremendous and not nearly as limited and conditions dependant as people make out. But Bedi had a seriously good record across all kind of conditions and imo is probably a bit underrated historically. Jadeja has done way better away from home than anyone is ready to admit but still not as dangerous as a genuine top class spinner would be as a wicket taker most of the time. Tier 1 is Ashwin/Kumble, Tier 2 Bedi/Chandra, Tier 3 Jadeja/Prasanna etc.
 
Flem274*

Flem274*

123/5
DRS has changed the game for spin. Umpires never gave **** and leg stump didn't exist before it. Even accounting for India's recent fascination with decks that rag square, Jadeja and Ashwin don't have the insane records they have pre-DRS imo. Bowlers were operating with one hand tied behind their backs in the 00s with the worldwide flatter pitch homogenization and no DRS.

I wouldn't be shocked if a 'what if' machine showed blokes who averaged in the 30s like Harbhajan, Panesar, Vettori etc averaged several runs less with universal DRS.
 
BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Uppercut said:
I thought Jadeja looked part time when he first came on the scene, but watching him in this series he looks like a proper spin bowler now. Not 200 wickets @ 24 good, but certainly test quality. He really doesn't bowl many bad balls.
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I actually don't think he's been at his best so far this series. He doesn't seem to be putting the work onto the ball he used to. Or that he used to in my memory, anyway.

Gone wicketless in two tests and I don't recall him being outrageously unlucky in doing so. He hasn't been given the workload his seam up confreres have had either.

Apparently he buggered the thumb on his spinning hand earlier in the year, so that could having an effect still.
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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BoyBrumby said:
Gone wicketless in two tests and I don't recall him being outrageously unlucky in doing so. He hasn't been given the workload his seam up confreres have had either.
Apparently he buggered the thumb on his spinning hand earlier in the year, so that could having an effect still.
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Yeah, was thinking this. Would be interesting to see if theres any average revs stats available for stuff like this.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Jadeja has not even been given the onus by team management this series to take wickets it seems. Almost seems like his job as a bowler is to give the pacers rest and get through his overs in lightning quick time.
 
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