Richard Hadlee vs Dale Steyn

[subshakerz]

Much flatter wickets in the 2000s too IMO

I think pitches in Australia and perhaps England did get flatter. But I believe there was a general tilt of the game towards batsmen in the 2000s, with the proliferation of ODIs and then T20s.

 

[subshakerz]

Good question. I tend to lean towards there just being fewer atg bowlers in the 2000s...

In you look at the 2000s, there wasn't a single world class pacer who consistently played the entire decade.

Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Donald and Walsh retired by 2002.

Shoaib played until 2007 but was injured half the time.

Asif debuted in 2006 and missed quite a few tests after that.

Shane Bond began in 2002 or 2003 and again was injured half the time.

Shaun Pollock slowly fizzled out and retired 2007.

McGrath was the best pacer of the decade but retired 2007.

Steyn began in 2004 but only really hit his stride in in 2007.

Compare that to the 80s and 90s, when you had ATGs playing for the entire or most of each decade.

 

[Athlai]

Testing that claim out
80s
Marshall/Hadlee/Dev/Botham/Imran/Lawson played 1980-89
Holding and Garner till 87
Lillee and Willis till 84
90s
Ambrose/Walsh/Wasim/Waqar played 1990-1999
Donald 92-99
McGrath 93-99
McDermott 91-96
Pollock 95-99
00s
Ntini/Vaas/Flintoff/Zaheer Khan/Kallis/Martin played 2000-2009
Harmison 2002-09
Lee/Pollock/Hoggard till 2008
Gillespie 00-06
Steyn 04-09
Anderson 03-09
Akhtar/McGrath to 2007
10s
Anderson/Broad/Steyn/Southee/Sharma/Roach/Siddle
Boult/Starc/Philander/Yadav 2011-2019
Morkel till 2018
Wagner 2012-2019
Hazlewood 2014-2019
Rabada 2015-2019
Johnson/Harris till 2015

On paper 00s does look the weakest by a margin

 

[TheJediBrah]

There are tons of bowlers from the 90s who were comfortably better than some of those you've mentioned in the 00s

 

[Athlai]

So all in all we are agreed that Williamson > Tendulkar

 

[TheJediBrah]

Let Williamson try to be better than Kohli first, then we'll talk about Tendulkar

 

[Athlai]

No one needs to play at one that wide.

 

[_00_deathscar]

No one needs to play at one that wide.

Just like Kohli

 

[subshakerz]

There are tons of bowlers from the 90s who were comfortably better than some of those you've mentioned in the 00s

Off the top of my head, some quality 90s pacers:

Paul Reifel, Fanie DeVilliers, Ian Bishop, Darren Gough and Damien Fleming

 

[Athlai]

Bishop had less wickets than I expected tbh

 

[TheJediBrah]

Heath Streak, Big Merv

 

[Chrish]

Deadliest out-swinger game has seen..

 

[bagapath]

Dale Steyn outperformed his contemporaries by a very large margin. His direct competitors were James Anderson and Ryan Harris for most of his career. I'm giving it to Steyn.

It is possible for a fast bowler who operated in peak form between 1978 and 1988 to not always outperform contemporaries like marshall, imran, holding, lillee and garner and still be miles ahead of future generation bowlers like anderson and harris. the chasm between the fast bowling talents of hadlee's era and steyn's era is pacific wide.

 

[Starfighter]

You know that one might venture to the opinion that the quality of a player is not really affected by other players in the team, or opposition, or especially matches in which said player is not even taking part.

That's why I don't buy the 'contemporaries argument'. Yeah there were a few good pacers in the eighties (although including Lawson is a reach, he was only good until he crocked his back around '84). So what?

 

[Nintendo]

I tend to agree with YJB here, as much as i loathe admitting it. Kohli>Kane as a test bat currently.

 

[Flem274*]

I don't think bowlers being 'worse' happened in a vacuum. I think many 00s bowlers would be looked on more fondly if they were fortunate to be born in 1960.

"Bowlers just got worse" is such a cricket fan argument. Bowlers were pushed out in the 00s. Some were still insanely good enough to be atgs.

Also if youre an atg in an era of few atg bowlers then you do get credit. Being special is how these things work.

 

[Flem274*]

You know that one might venture to the opinion that the quality of a player is not really affected by other players in the team, or oppositon

that venturer is an idiot. events in the game dictate how you play.

 

[Daemon]

You know that one might venture to the opinion that the quality of a player is not really affected by other players in the team, or opposition, or especially matches in which said player is not even taking part.

That's why I don't buy the 'contemporaries argument'. Yeah there were a few good pacers in the eighties (although including Lawson is a reach, he was only good until he crocked his back around '84). So what?

I mean comparing against contemporaries is pretty much one the best ways of rating players between different eras isn’t it?

How else (statistically) do we know that Grace was a great batsman?

 

[Slifer]

Bishop had less wickets than I expected tbh

Terrible luck with injuries. Started off being a level above Ambrose. Think about that.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I tend to agree with YJB here, as much as i loathe admitting it. Kohli>Kane as a test bat currently.

Since the start of 2020 one of them is averaging 85 from 7 tests, while the other is averaging 24 from 8.