Make Room Fab Four - Now it's the ***y Seven

[hendrix]

My impression of Conway, his ceiling is a Michael Clarke type player who generally plays his shots but has some weaknesses. That's still excellent and I'll be please if he develops to that general peak.

Labuschagne looks better to me from the eye test.

 

[Flem274*]

Does any batsman not struggle with movement? It's such a weird qualifier.

Flem automatically seems to put an asterix over any batsman who plays his shots. But do we see Pujara scoring any better in England/NZ than Pant? It is a bizarre qualifier based on no evidence.

Pant's ability to score runs is the crucial factor here.

The jury is out on what his career will look like but it's so weird to put the "doesn't do well against the moving ball" qualifier when it's something that affects every batsman and in and in any case his role in the team has never and will never require him to be Rahul Dravid.

it's not binary, it's a spectrum, and i was being polite with my earlier post. pant is absolute mud against the moving ball relative to the average test batsman. this passes the eye and numbers test, especially if southee holds his catches. another good example is pant played the worst innings ever seen on nz soil at hagley oval.

his role doesn't require him to be a more rounded batsman, and as i said earlier that's fine. he's a very good chance of being a top class keeper bat, but he isn't comparable to the fab 4 or even the tier below. he's not that good. only two full time keeper batsmen can claim to be atg batsmen in their own right and they are adam gilchrist and andy flower.

 

[ankitj]

Flem missing Pant, it's embarrassing

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I know Pant hits the ball hard and is very exciting to watch, but I reckon Rizwan is as good a batsman and a much better keeper.

 

[Gob]

Flem missing Pant, it's embarrassing

Not if you are a nudist

 

[honestbharani]

I know Pant hits the ball hard and is very exciting to watch, but I reckon Rizwan is as good a batsman and a much better keeper.

Did you not see the fumble in that PSL game? I am a big fan of Rizwan and I actually think he is a more bankable batsman and keeper but that really does not mean better, especially when you are comparing him to match winners like Pant and De Kock.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Did you not see the fumble in that PSL game? I am a big fan of Rizwan and I actually think he is a more bankable batsman and keeper but that really does not mean better, especially when you are comparing him to match winners like Pant and De Kock.

Sorry the only PSL I've ever seen was Grant Elliot's bat drop on YouTube.

 

[hendrix]

it's not binary, it's a spectrum, and i was being polite with my earlier post. pant is absolute mud against the moving ball relative to the average test batsman. this passes the eye and numbers test, especially if southee holds his catches. another good example is pant played the worst innings ever seen on nz soil at hagley oval.

his role doesn't require him to be a more rounded batsman, and as i said earlier that's fine. he's a very good chance of being a top class keeper bat, but he isn't comparable to the fab 4 or even the tier below. he's not that good. only two full time keeper batsmen can claim to be atg batsmen in their own right and they are adam gilchrist and andy flower.

You've shifted the goalposts. It's quite possible (probable even) that Pant's career reverts to something like Matt Prior's, or Brad Haddin's, or Brendon McCullum's. That's not the point though, is it?

The point is that "can't play the moving ball" is such a bad reactionary response to a good start to an aggressive batsman's career. It's lazy at best, and at worst it smacks of the Sir Ravi Jadeja classism.

Pray tell me, what "average test batsman" does better against that attack in those conditions? Talking either a) in the WTC final or b) in the Australia series.

 

[hendrix]

I mean i don't disagree with the general sentiment that there's no way that pant can be in the same conversation as Root at the moment, I'm just not fond of the "lol can't play movement" reaction to a batsman very early in his career.

There are legitimate "lol can't play the moving ball" e.g. Arun Finch etc just need to be a bit more scrupulous when applying that qualifier

 

[Flem274*]

pant is in the finch category. from 5:45 below is the highlights of the worst individual test innings in nz i can remember, and they're just showing the highlights of it. i saw every ball, and he had no idea. wafts away from his body, has no idea where off stump is and plays aerially with no control.

pant is a good player with several great knocks, and could play as a batsman alone for several countries, but he currently has severe limitations if we're talking about him as a batsman in comparison with joe root, and you need to stop implying all players are equal against the moving pill.

on batting alone, pant is not in the same postcode as the fab four or even those knocking on its door like babar azam, marnus labuschagne etc.

im not gonna even go into the 'batting classism' stuff, because we've both wasted enough of our lives on cw to know i'm not part of the conventional wisdom brigade.

 

[_00_deathscar]

He has grown as a batsman since that series to be fair and seems to play the conditions/situation better now.

 

[harsh.ag]

My expectation is that Pant will end up as a Sehwag-

 

[honestbharani]

pant is in the finch category. from 5:45 below is the highlights of the worst individual test innings in nz i can remember, and they're just showing the highlights of it. i saw every ball, and he had no idea. wafts away from his body, has no idea where off stump is and plays aerially with no control.

pant is a good player with several great knocks, and could play as a batsman alone for several countries, but he currently has severe limitations if we're talking about him as a batsman in comparison with joe root, and you need to stop implying all players are equal against the moving pill.

on batting alone, pant is not in the same postcode as the fab four or even those knocking on its door like babar azam, marnus labuschagne etc.

im not gonna even go into the 'batting classism' stuff, because we've both wasted enough of our lives on cw to know i'm not part of the conventional wisdom brigade.

Yeah, I mean, players never improve, do they, especially from what they were when they were 21...

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah, I mean, players never improve, do they, especially from what they were when they were 21...

we're talking about right now. of course he can improve, though he is coming from a lower bar than some of his teammates in the same conditions.

even if pant continues to be a rapid scoring god in asia and australia, i think india would take that since they play 70% of their cricket in those conditions. he would be an overall win, and one of the best keeper bats of all time provided he keeps his glovework acceptable. he also has a nice long opportunity to do well in england coming up, which if he does would be very exciting for india. he would be a massive threat to dhonis throne in tests.

 

[Gob]

I didn't see Eng/India series so can't comment on that but I can't recall Pant charging fast bowlers and trying to heave them over cow corner in Aust. There are ways of being aggressive but that ain't one of them especially when the game is in balance

 

[honestbharani]

we're talking about right now. of course he can improve, though he is coming from a lower bar than some of his teammates in the same conditions.

even if pant continues to be a rapid scoring god in asia and australia, i think india would take that since they play 70% of their cricket in those conditions. he would be an overall win, and one of the best keeper bats of all time provided he keeps his glovework acceptable. he also has a nice long opportunity to do well in england coming up, which if he does would be very exciting for india. he would be a massive threat to dhonis throne in tests.

I obviously rate him more than you do but if you saw how he batted in the WTC final, it is obvious his own style of play is a bigger drawback for him than any perceived lack of ability to handle swing. He is no worse or better than most batsmen at that even right now and his other upsides mean he can be considered as valuable as anyone but the big 4 right now, if not even amongst them.

 

[honestbharani]

I didn't see Eng/India series so can't comment on that but I can't recall Pant charging fast bowlers and trying to heave them over cow corner in Aust. There are ways of being aggressive but that ain't one of them especially when the game is in balance

I didn't mind him coming down the track at all but it definitely bothered me that his only option seemed to be cow corner, especially against Boult who is known to move the ball away from the lefties. That was the shocking part, I thought he had grown a batting brain and felt he was usually picking the better percentage options, even when taking risks. That shot was ugly.

 

[Flem274*]

I obviously rate him more than you do but if you saw how he batted in the WTC final, it is obvious his own style of play is a bigger drawback for him than any perceived lack of ability to handle swing. He is no worse or better than most batsmen at that even right now and his other upsides mean he can be considered as valuable as anyone but the big 4 right now, if not even amongst them.

i watched every ball because you gotta see the big events but nah, he's clearly on the wrong end of the bell curve of international class batsmen in english/nz/south african conditions. it's pretty evident and hey, everyone has their weaknesses. as much as im pointing out pants flaws right now, im sure we'll have no shortage of posters correctly observing nz can't handle ashwin/jadeja/axar in several months when things get very ugly for the wtc champs.

and sure, pant is very valuable as a cricketer but that's not what's being discussed, this is a thread about batting not catching and batting.

 

[Flem274*]

I didn't mind him coming down the track at all but it definitely bothered me that his only option seemed to be cow corner, especially against Boult who is known to move the ball away from the lefties. That was the shocking part, I thought he had grown a batting brain and felt he was usually picking the better percentage options, even when taking risks. That shot was ugly.

he was very nearly dismissed in identical fashion to the video above. he is more or less the same player, and a very successful one in most situations but he isn't going to score runs in nz/england/south africa popping the bat out so wide.

 

[Spark]

I read this as ****ty Seven and was expecting seven shades of ****.

At least Kohli is there I guess…

I did this too and was wondering if it was going to be, like, Bairstow and Thirimanne.