Ponting vs Kallis

[ankitj]

Both are long retired. Wonder where everyone stands now. Poll is still open!

 

[Gob]

Poontang

 

[Slifer]

It was interesting back in the 90's how they compared, Ponting was a better player much earlier, handled Donald, Ambrose, Wasim etc all really well, whereas Kallis struggled against the WI and Pakistan for awhile, but like Ponting and Hayden he really cashed in when so many great bowlers retired, but still had issues with McGrath,warn and Murali (in fact just about every SL bowler!).

Kallis' first series vs WI in 1998, he excelled.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sachin
Lara

Smith
Ponting
Sanga
Waugh

Kallis
Kohli
Dravid

Sehwag / Younis / Flower

 

[_00_deathscar]

Sachin
Lara

Smith
Ponting
Sanga
Waugh

Kallis
Kohli
Dravid

Sehwag / Younis / Flower

Does Flower get penalised for playing for Zimbabwe here?

 

[Burgey]

I presume Smith gets penalised in this ranking list because he’s not finished yet?

Got no problem with that btw, just asking.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Does Flower get penalised for playing for Zimbabwe here?

Extra points for playing in a weaker team.

 

[Bolo.]

Kallis averages 8 runs more away than Ponting, playing in the same era.

Basically the same home average, but other than Albie's single innings career, Kallis averages 20%+++ more than any RSA bat at home since readmission. For Ponting you are looking at 20 something bats within this range. Better bats from Aus, but not to anything near this extent.

For a more digestible comparison, the top bats from Aus and RSA from the 2000s are easily comparable (Smith, Amla, AB vs Hayden, Clarke, Hussey). Kallis was streets ahead of the best RSA bats at home. Averaged something like 35% more than Smith, who averaged almost as much away as Kallis. All the Aussies averaged more at home than Ponting.

Averages arent all etc., and there are others ways Ponting was better, but I would like to know from the people who rate him ahead (and particularly the people who put him a tier ahead): do you think Ponting is ahead home, away, or both?

 

[Gob]

Kallis averages 8 runs more away than Ponting, playing in the same era.

Basically the same home average, but other than Albie's single innings career, Kallis averages 20%+++ more than any RSA bat at home since readmission. For Ponting you are looking at 20 something bats within this range. Better bats from Aus, but not to anything near this extent.

For a more digestible comparison, the top bats from Aus and RSA from the 2000s are easily comparable (Smith, Amla, AB vs Hayden, Clarke, Hussey). Kallis was streets ahead of the best RSA bats at home. Averaged something like 35% more than Smith, who averaged almost as much away as Kallis. All the Aussies averaged more at home than Ponting.

Averages arent all etc., and there are others ways Ponting was better, but I would like to know from the people who rate him ahead (and particularly the people who put him a tier ahead): do you think Ponting is ahead home, away, or both?

Ponting's overall away average is hugely affected by the India record. Its obviously should go against him when evaluating Ponting but I think there away records were very similar beyond that I think

Anyway I personally rate Ponting ahead of Kallis mostly due to there respective styles of play

 

[Bolo.]

Ponting's overall away average is hugely affected by the India record. Its obviously should go against him when evaluating Ponting but I think there away records were very similar beyond that I think

Anyway I personally rate Ponting ahead of Kallis mostly due to there respective styles of play

I don't tend to care too much where specifically a hole in a record is, unless it indicates a weakness that can be generalised, which I dont think you can do with Ponting. His shitty record in India gets brought up to criticize him frequently, but it is a non-event to me, other than how it drags his general record down (Asia or overall).

You cant just dismiss it though. India was the place that Aus had the toughest time touring. If you are going to weigh it outside of his general record, it makes him look worse than his overall record.

I also rank Ponting ahead on his style of play. Possibly not on his general faster rate of scoring (which was undoubtably far better in the team he played for, but may have been worse playing for RSA, who got their success, particularly away, by playing attritional cricket in matches and series, and in which Kallis was the main man). But definitely on his much greater ability to pace an innings according to match situation.

I rank Hooper a long way ahead of Chanders based on general style of playing. But at some point, the ability to put runs on the board consistently has to count for something.

Anyway, same question. With the understanding that you rank Ponting ahead of Kallis due to his style, do you rate him ahead: home, away, or both?

 

[_00_deathscar]

I don't tend to care too much where specifically a hole in a record is, unless it indicates a weakness that can be generalised, which I dont think you can do with Ponting. His ****ty record in India gets brought up to criticize him frequently, but it is a non-event to me, other than how it drags his general record down (Asia or overall).

You cant just dismiss it though. India was the place that Aus had the toughest time touring. If you are going to weigh it outside of his general record, it makes him look worse than his overall record.

I also rank Ponting ahead on his style of play. Possibly not on his general faster rate of scoring (which was undoubtably far better in the team he played for, but may have been worse playing for RSA, who got their success, particularly away, by playing attritional cricket in matches and series, and in which Kallis was the main man). But definitely on his much greater ability to pace an innings according to match situation.

I rank Hooper a long way ahead of Chanders based on general style of playing. But at some point, the ability to put runs on the board consistently has to count for something.

Anyway, same question. With the understanding that you rank Ponting ahead of Kallis due to his style, do you rate him ahead: home, away, or both?

All 3. Ponting was the standout in the era when at his peak.
And had the ability to take the game away from you.

Ponting is compared quite often with Sachin and Lara though most accept he’s a floating tier below that.
I don’t think it feels right to compare Kallis with those two.

 

[Gob]

I don't tend to care too much where specifically a hole in a record is, unless it indicates a weakness that can be generalised, which I dont think you can do with Ponting. His ****ty record in India gets brought up to criticize him frequently, but it is a non-event to me, other than how it drags his general record down (Asia or overall).

You cant just dismiss it though. India was the place that Aus had the toughest time touring. If you are going to weigh it outside of his general record, it makes him look worse than his overall record.

I also rank Ponting ahead on his style of play. Possibly not on his general faster rate of scoring (which was undoubtably far better in the team he played for, but may have been worse playing for RSA, who got their success, particularly away, by playing attritional cricket in matches and series, and in which Kallis was the main man). But definitely on his much greater ability to pace an innings according to match situation.

I rank Hooper a long way ahead of Chanders based on general style of playing. But at some point, the ability to put runs on the board consistently has to count for something.

Anyway, same question. With the understanding that you rank Ponting ahead of Kallis due to his style, do you him ahead: home, away, or both?

Home Poontang

Away depends on where they at

Kallis in India, Punter in Eng. other places even

 

[Gob]

All 3. Ponting was the standout in the era when at his peak.
And had the ability to take the game away from you.

Ponting is compared quite often with Sachin and Lara though most accept he’s a floating tier below that.
I don’t think it feels right to compare Kallis with those two.

This is exactly how I feel about it. Obviously Ponting is below those two but somehow it doesn't really feel terrible to mention him alongside them but it doesn't quite feel right with Kallis. Or Dravid or Sanga for that matter hence that thread

Anyway its perfectly normal for a Kallis fan to feel bogus about this. There's very little between them statistically

 

[Bolo.]

Home Poontang

Away depends on where they at

Kallis in India, Punter in Eng. other places even

Not sure why you want to single out these two countries. But on these two alone, Kallis averages 35 and 58 while Ponting averages 26 and 42. Mediocre and great vs terrible and decent. No comparison. Not that I am a fan of these country breakdowns regardless, but this is a poor example... makes it sound like one bat is extremely good while one was probably not test quality, which wasnt the case.

How do you account for the gap in home averages I described in the OP?

 

[Gob]

Not sure why you want to single out these two countries. But on these two alone, Kallis averages 35 and 58 while Ponting averages 26 and 42. Mediocre and great vs terrible and decent. No comparison. Not that I am a fan of these country breakdowns regardless, but this is a poor example... makes it sound like one bat is extremely good while one was probably not test quality, which wasnt the case.

How do you account for the gap in home averages I described in the OP?

Cos those were the two best mutual challenges these two could face. SA for Ponting and Aus for Kallis were also huge challenges which I think both passed.

Didn't read the post re second bolded part but I assume is about the home and away average disparity and I replied to that I think. The overall away average for Ponting is skewed as a result of India and you have to look deeper in to the stats to see that he has succeeded in most countries. Ponting averages more than Kallis in Eng, NZ, SL, UAE and WI. Kallis averages more in India. Ponting averages more in Pakistan but Kallis has played more there. Kallis averages slightly more in Australia than Ponting does in SA but imo Ponting's runs in SA were more impactful than Kallis's in Australia anyway I think you get my point.

Its very similar to Murali's away average of 27 compared to Warne's 24 but when you look at country by country basis, they are very close

EDIT ftr I have no problem if anyone prefers Kallis there are certainly many aspects in batting that Kallis is better at than Ponting.

 

[Bolo.]

All 3. Ponting was the standout in the era when at his peak.
And had the ability to take the game away from you.

Ponting is compared quite often with Sachin and Lara though most accept he’s a floating tier below that.
I don’t think it feels right to compare Kallis with those two.

What was Pontings peak? 99-end 2007? Averaged 65 for the calender years. Kallis played basically the same number of games from 99- end 2008, also averaging 65, playing in way tougher home conditions and averaging much more away. Fair enough if you want to consider Pontings ahead for this period anyway (I do), but it is extremely close.

And this is a period tailored to suit Ponting. Pick a time period tailored to suit Ponting. The longer you go, the better it suits Kallis. But you can also go shorter. I would be extremely surprised if he can match Kallis 04-07 for the same time period at any time in his career, even with the understanding that Ponting was a better bat if we look at normalised averages. Can Ponting match how nuts Kallis went in this period?

To what extent is this statement true, and to what extent is it a truism that initially took route cos Ponting was the first of the 2000s greats to fully bloom?

 

[ankitj]

Kallis never had an extended slump towards the end unlike Ponting. That kind of tilts it for me in favour of Kallis. Around 2008 or so I would placed Ponting ahead (even thought he had started challenging Tendulkar who had been less than stellar for ~4 years at that point).