Following up on a request, top 10 greatest batsmen of all time in tests (not including the Don)

[subshakerz]

25 is enough.

Then you would have guys like Jimmy Adams and Michael Hussey as outliers who started their career big.

 

[Jack1]

Tests or average?

Both

 

[Chrish]

One other thing to be noted is the vast difference in the type of pitches and run scoring between the 00s and 2010s. Smith, and to a lesser extent, the other fab 4 as well, should not be marked down coz they are doing their averages in an altogether tougher era for batsmen. That needs to be kept in mind when comparing them with the 00s stars.

I would still wait for these guys to finish before I rank them. Best way these comparisons work IMO are when you take retired players against retired players and current players against current players.

This is a tougher era for batting for sure but up until few years ago, wickets in Australia were as batting friendly as they come.. Not only Smith, but almost all other Australian batsmen were averaging absurdly high; Warner or even Voges. Even visiting batsmen like Kohli and Williamson piled up huge amount of runs when they toured during time period.

So, it’s more important to look at average in each country over certain period of time. This in term makes achievements of Cummins and especially Hazlewood/ Johnson more impressive. They had to toil hard on these concrete slabs.

 

[honestbharani]

This is a tougher era for batting for sure but up until few years ago, wickets in Australia were as batting friendly as they come.. Not only Smith, but almost all other Australian batsmen were averaging absurdly high; Warner or even Voges. Even visiting batsmen like Kohli and Williamson piled up huge amount of runs when they toured during time period.

So, it’s more important to look at average in each country over certain period of time. This in term makes achievements of Cummins and especially Hazlewood/ Johnson more impressive. They had to toil hard on these concrete slabs.

Fair enough if you feel the change happened around 2015. They still have amazing numbers 2015 and beyond too, especially Smith.

 

[Chrish]

I don’t care about 4th innings stats.. Prevention is better than cure. I would rather have batsmen score enough in first dig and cause enough damage to the opposition..

 

[honestbharani]

Also, we really do need to normalize innings by innings averages and make them relative to what the regular average in those innings are. I know some pitches and results will tend to skew the numbers somewhat but for top 7 batsmen, I do believe it will be pretty telling and also contextualize some of these numbers as quite often, we are not really comparing apples to apples even when comparing absolute batting averages.

 

[subshakerz]

Fair enough if you feel the change happened around 2015. They still have amazing numbers 2015 and beyond too, especially Smith.

Yeah around 2015-2016 you even had New Zealand and Pakistani batsmen scoring double tons in Australia, which would be unthinkable in the 90s.

 

[Days of Grace]

1. Sir Jack Hobbs
2. Sir Garfield Sobers
3. Sachin Tendulkar
4. Len Hutton
5. Steve Smith
6. Viv Richards
7. Brian Lara
8. Kumar Sangakkara
9. Ricky Ponting
10. Greg Chappell

 

[rtramdas]

My top 10 test batsmen of all time

1. Bradman - so far ahead of his contemporaries , can't argue against that.
2. Viv - 'never wore a helmet' factor & 'str: of 70 in an era where 40-45 was the norm ' covers up for other inadequacies
3. Sachin - such a complete batsman with all the statistical measures intact ...this despite facing such higher pressure of expectations
4. Gavaskar - to average 50+ that too opening the batting facing quality bowlers and score 10000 runs, good to great record in all nations too
5. Lara - his knack of compiling huge scores & scoring almost 12000 runs
6. Steven Smith - such mammoth average of almost 62 + almost 7500 runs + good to great record in all nations( can end up higher or lower in the order depending on his end career stats
7. Allan Border- best batsman in a crisis, fighter to the core, such great record in all nations + over 11000 runs
8. ABDevillers - almost 8750 runs with 40+ average in all countries
9. Kallis - such amazing longevity, good to great average in all nations
10. Greg Chappel - though lacks in longevity relatively to some other candidates, he makes up with 40+ average in all nations
11. Ponting - never convincing in India , other wise would have him much higher

 

[mr_mister]

The official list in no order

Hammond
Hutton
Hobbs
Sobers
Headley
Ramprakash
Lara
Viv
Sachin
Pollock


This is like fact

 

[srbhkshk]

Ramprakash should be on top, he has the longest name by far - so there's statistical basis to this.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The scary thing is that that's not the worst list in the thread.

 

[Bolo.]

The scary thing is that that's not the worst list in the thread.

My favourite list so far actually. But wrong. Headley and Pollock dont deserve spots based on the thread title, even though there is ample reason to rate them better bats than a bunch of the other contenders.

Also, not sure if anyone has picked up on this, but it is missing a no-brainer... Gavaskar. I am really surprised about how few lists he is making. There are millimeters seperating a huge number of middle order bats. But there really are just 4 openers we should be looking at, and I am not so sure about Sutcliffe, so the others walk in.

 

[mr_mister]

My favourite list so far actually. But wrong. Headley and Pollock dont deserve spots based on the thread title, even though there is ample reason to rate them better bats than a bunch of the other contenders.

Also, not sure if anyone has picked up on this, but it is missing a no-brainer... Gavaskar. I am really surprised about how few lists he is making. There are millimeters seperating a huge number of middle order bats. But there really are just 4 openers we should be looking at, and I am not so sure about Sutcliffe, so the others walk in.

We can sub in Gavaskar for Ramprakash maybe

 

[mr_mister]

also Headley and Pollock being known as 'Black Bradman' and 'Left Handed Bradman' always gives them bonus points in my books.

And those 9 names seem to always be in a special tier above the likes of Gavaskar/Ponting/Chappell/Sanga when CW does like mass voting on this matter. I've ran a few batting countdowns myself and noticed this

 

[Bolo.]

We can sub in Gavaskar for Ramprakash maybe

Dirty, dirty lies.

Some names are not up for debate.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

also Headley and Pollock being known as 'Black Bradman' and 'Left Handed Bradman' always gives them bonus points in my books.

And those 9 names seem to always be in a special tier above the likes of Gavaskar/Ponting/Chappell/Sanga when CW does like mass voting on this matter. I've ran a few batting countdowns myself and noticed this

You’re the only one who ever sees the end results of your countdowns, so one else notices.

 

[Bolo.]

also Headley and Pollock being known as 'Black Bradman' and 'Left Handed Bradman' always gives them bonus points in my books.

And those 9 names seem to always be in a special tier above the likes of Gavaskar/Ponting/Chappell/Sanga when CW does like mass voting on this matter. I've ran a few batting countdowns myself and noticed this

I dont doubt that they were better bats than many who make these lists. Vaguely, possibly, all of them other than Hobbs. But this list calls for the greatest test bats, and that is a different question.

 

[mr_mister]

You’re the only one who ever sees the end results of your countdowns, so one else notices.

i mean the voting is all public... if people want to audit me they're more than welcome to

 

[subshakerz]

Really, this is an impossible task. You can make the case for no.1 and 2, but after that it is really subjective.

Using the rule 'an all-time great in one era would be the same in another era' I am putting those who were considered as near unanimously the best of their era. To me if within the two decades you were playing, you are recognized as the best that puts you in a special category.

1910-20s Jack Hobbs (followed by Sutcliffe)
1930s - 40s Bradman (followed by Len Hutton)
1950s - 60s Sobers (followed by Graeme Pollock)
1970s - 80s Viv (followed by Gavaskar)
1990s - 00s Sachin (followed by Lara)
2010s - 20s Smith (followed by Kohli)

So, excluding Smith because he is still playing, the top five should be among Hobbs, Bradman, Sobers, Viv and Sachin. Out of that list, Bradman is no.1 for being so ahead and Sachin in no.2 in my book for his technical and statistical near perfection over the longest international career. The remaining three would be tough to separate but I would go with the order of Viv, Hobbs and Sobers.

The remaining 6-10 can include Hutton, Pollock, Gavaskar, Sutcliffe and Lara. Pollock and likely Sutcliffe would be removed for not playing enough tests. It would then be a tight tussle between Aussies Greg Chappell, Border and Ponting for the remaining two spaces. Chappell and Border to me gets extra points for being in a tougher era. I am going for Lara, Hutton, Gavaskar, Chappell and Border.

Final list;

1. Bradman
2. Sachin
3. Viv
4. Hobbs.
5. Sobers.
6. Lara
7. Hutton
8. Gavaskar
9. Chappell
10. Border
11. Ponting