Following up on a request, top 10 greatest batsmen of all time in tests (not including the Don)

[Chrish]

Lol you didn't answer my request but that's ok...because you can't. As it stands Smith's career isn't over so it's unfair to rank him as the 2nd best after the Don. But there's nothing in Smith's resume that precludes him from being ranked 2nd best when all is said and done. He's already accomplished enough...

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[Slifer]

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Umm emphasis on a comparable or better attack. Neither of the above quite qualify. Sorry. Lara '99 vs Australia. ..yes. Allan Border vs the WI in 1984...yes.

 

[Chrish]

Umm emphasis on a comparable or better attack. Neither of the above quite qualify. Sorry. Lara '99 vs Australia. ..yes. Allan Border vs the WI in 1984...yes.

Why?

 

[Chrish]

Steve Smith's knocks in the last ashes allowed Australia to retain the ashes away to England. His 100 in 2014 (+ Johnson being in beast mode), allowed Australia to win the critical first test in RSA. As I recall, Oz were like a hundred or so and lost 3 or 4 wickets when Smith and marsh put on 200 runs under trying circumstances to put the pressure on RSA. It's like people are trying to make it seem like Smith has made easy runs or something. He's been the batting difference between Australia and paltry scores.....

Yes but who is disputing that? This comment is geared toward the logic such as if you average 40 then you are golden. Series average of 40 doesn't automatically mean success and series average of less doesn't necessarily mean failure. That's what I am getting at.

 

[Slifer]

Those weren't great attacks. Steyn/ Morkel/Harris< Steyn/Morkel/Philander Anyway your argument looking back on your previous posts seem to center in two issues: longevity and his record vs a major team ie RSA. The longevity thing, I can get on board with. His record vs Rsa nope. Why? Because every single one of his predecessors and contemporaries have similar and even more glaring holes in their Cv. Sachin for example vs Pakistan, Lara vs India, Sobers vs Nz, who else?

 

[Slifer]

Yes but who is disputing that? This comment is geared toward the logic such as if you average 40 then you are golden. Series average of 40 doesn't automatically mean success and series average of less doesn't necessarily mean failure. That's what I am getting at.

You literally said his knocks vs RSA in the last series down under were inconsequential. I pointed out knocks vs RSA and vs England etc that were. Simple.

 

[Chrish]

Those weren't great attacks. Steyn/ Morkel/Harris< Steyn/Morkel/Philander Anyway your argument looking back on your previous posts seem to center in two issues: longevity and his record vs a major team ie RSA. The longevity thing, I can get on board with. His record vs Rsa nope. Why? Because every single one of his predecessors and contemporaries have similar and even more glaring holes in their Cv. Sachin for example vs Pakistan, Lara vs India, Sobers vs Nz, who else?

While also neglecting the fact that one player was playing way down the order compared to another one and Morkel and Steyn were 3-4 years younger in 2011; Steyn in particular was in the form of his life as evident by his performance.

But whatever carry on..

 

[Chrish]

You literally said his knocks vs RSA in the last series down under were inconsequential. I pointed out knocks vs RSA and vs England etc that were. Simple.

I was referring to past two series against RSA, not his first series.

 

[Slifer]

While also neglecting the fact that one player was playing way down the order compared to another one and Morkel and Steyn were 3-4 years younger in 2011; Steyn in particular was in the form of his life as evident by his performance.

But whatever carry on..

Doesn't matter, you emphasized in a prior post, knocks vs the very best, I assume across the course of a series. Morkel/Steyn while very good pales in comparison to their later attacks...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Those weren't great attacks. Steyn/ Morkel/Harris< Steyn/Morkel/Philander

You do realize Steyn got injured a few overs into that last test and SA had to bowl a bazillion overs of Dean Elgar and JP Duminy dont you? This isnt as simple as you're making out.

 

[Chrish]

Doesn't matter, you emphasized in a prior post, knocks vs the very best, I assume across the course of a series. Morkel/Steyn while very good pales in comparison to their later attacks...

Starting to think you are running out of good arguments and starting to resort to "just because I said so" logic.

 

[Slifer]

I was referring to past two series against RSA, not his first series.

You do realize Steyn got injured a few overs into that last test and SA had to bowl a bazillion overs of Dean Elgar and JP Duminy dont you? This isnt as simple as you're making out.

Fine, first two tests still tonned up and averaged 50. Good enough for me.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You do realize Steyn got injured a few overs into that last test and SA had to bowl a bazillion overs of Dean Elgar and JP Duminy dont you?

That was just 1 game, and not even the one he did best in. One thing that never amazes me about this forum is the lengths people will go to to try and find a problem with a player they don't like

 

[Slifer]

Starting to think you are running out of good arguments and starting to resort to "just because I said so" logic.

Your argument is supposedly his record vs RSA which is odd because it's not as terrible as you're making out to be. And secondly, none of the batsmen who I assume you rank above him have done better.


I already said I agree with you where longevity is concerned. Who knows if his career nose dives from here on out.

Of course I'm going to argue based on what you said since none of us can read minds...

 

[Chrish]

I actually quite like Smith and want him to continue reaching new heights. His Ashes comeback was a stuff of legend and hope he has that kind of series against non-English team for a change..

 

[OverratedSanity]

That was just 1 game, and not even the one he did best in. One thing that never amazes me about this forum is the lengths people will go to to try and find a problem with a player they don't like

I think he's probably going to end up the greatest post bradman player. Im just pointing out it isnt as simple as looking at the names of the players in an attack to say that its a massive challenge to go up against, surely some context matters.

These sensitive Smith fans smh.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think he's probably going to end up the greatest post bradman player. Im just pointing out it isnt as simple as looking at the names of the players in an attack to say that its a massive challenge to go up against, surely some context matters.

These sensitive Smith fans smh.

phew if I'm a Smith fan I'd hate to see what his detractors have to say. Only players I've talked more **** about are Head and Lyon

 

[Gob]

Re Chrish im not going to reply in to each post but in general, i don't think SS is the second greatest batsman of all time like you but your reasoning for the argument doesn't look very solid. Garry Sobers averaged 43 against Australia. Brian Lara averaged 34 vs India and Viv Richards respectively averaged 42,43 and 44 against Pakistan, New Zealand and Australia and you could argue the three best bowlers he could have faced were from those teams yet most people including me have them in my top 5. Smith's average of 41 against RSA is not a hole for me but if you want to go in to detail, he was successful over there in the first tour. Left stranded twice at Hobart the return home series, weird LBW and a run out when well set followed by getting out to Mahraj 3 times in SA until the sand paper and death. Personally i don't like cherry picking like this and they are not justifications for a 'relatively' middling record but i assume the whole point of failing against RSA is find wanting against good fast bowlers in helpful conditions which is far from the case here.

If you want to find holes in his record, 4th innings performances is a good start. Also you can look at stretches where likes of Ponting and Sangakkara averaged in the 60s for lengthy periods but if you go there, its a different argument but certainly has more validity than what you have now

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sachin averaged 59-60 for a stretch of 18 years. Thats longer than most careers.

 

[Zinzan]

Sanga, Sachin, etc had huge strecthes of 100+ tests where they averaged 60+. Let's see how Smith's overall stats look like after (if?) he goes through some troughs that come with a full length career.

This ^, and a reason I'm not yet prepared to categorically put Smith even ahead of Ponting, let alone other top 10 all-time great test bats.

Ponting's Test match average peaked at 59.99 in his 107th Test in 2006 https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...emplate=results;type=allround;view=cumulative

Smith has played 77 test to date. Come back to me if his average is as high as Ponting's 59.99 after even 100 tests, and we'll talk.