Following up on a request, top 10 greatest batsmen of all time in tests (not including the Don)

[Chrish]

Steve Smith averages 41 vs RSA. Similar to the 41 he also averages vs SL. While not earth shatteringly great it's still passable. None of Viv, or Sachin, or Lara or whomever have a record that is (much) more complete if at all....

Yes but you have to look past mere averages. He averaged 40 against SA when SA toured Australia last time but he was pretty inconsequential..

 

[Slifer]

Yes but you have to look past mere averages. He averaged 40 against SA when SA toured Australia last time but he was pretty inconsequential..

Including making 40 odd not out in an inning where Oz was bundled out for well under 100. So not inconsequential imo. That he has had issues with RSA is nothing to ashamed of, in the times he's faced them they've usually had atg attacks. Again i ask, who hasn't had issues with a particular attack? Fact is, he has made runs against them and when it mattered...

 

[Chrish]

Including making 40 odd not out in an inning where Oz was bundled out for well under 100. So not inconsequential imo. That he has had issues with RSA is nothing to ashamed of, in the times he's faced them they've usually had atg attacks. Again i ask, who hasn't had issues with a particular attack? Fact is, he has made runs against them and when it mattered...

Not outs are not outs; it doesn’t mean more or less. When team gets out for low, that doesn’t mean there were demons in the pitch or if conditions were particularly difficult. SA won that game by an inning by posting a big total for example. So, yes his performance in the whole series was inconsequential.

Yes there is nothing to be ashamed of. But that’s the point, isn’t it? That how do you perform against the best? Abdv for example played like a dream when both teams played a series in SA and both teams had ATG attacks.

Mind you I am not saying he can’t score in difficult conditions. He absolutely did when touring India and England but he lacks performance against RSA who had the best pace attack.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Since 2010
Smith 77 tests 62avg
ABdV 60 tests 58avg
Sanga 46 tests 61avg
Chanderpaul 41 tests 60avg
Kallis 33 tests 58 avg



Since 2015
Steve Smith 52 tests 68 avg
Williamson 47 tests 65 avg

 

[Slifer]

Since 2010
Smith 77 tests 62avg
ABdV 60 tests 58avg
Sanga 46 tests 61avg
Chanderpaul 41 tests 60avg
Kallis 33 tests 58 avg



Since 2015
Steve Smith 52 tests 68 avg
Williamson 47 tests 65 avg

Of course with Sanga and co theirs were purple patches of longer careers, whereas Smith's entire career has pretty much been a purple patch. 27 hundreds in 77 tests is absurd.

 

[Flem274*]

Smith already at least #2 to Tendulkar of players I've seen, and there's a strong argument for him to be top 3 post Bradman. Athlai's comparison is surprisingly good - he's like Sobers without the bowling.

Kohli sneaking into these top 10s is ITSTL. Bit of a hype job due to his record at home and in Australia imo. He's got some pretty big vulnerabilities (for an ATG, which he is) to bowl at that say, Sangakkara, Ponting, Lara et al did not have.

 

[Slifer]

Not outs are not outs; it doesn’t mean more or less. When team gets out for low, that doesn’t mean there were demons in the pitch or if conditions were particularly difficult. SA won that game by an inning by posting a big total for example. So, yes his performance in the whole series was inconsequential.

Yes there is nothing to be ashamed of. But that’s the point, isn’t it? That how do you perform against the best? Abdv for example played like a dream when both teams played a series in SA and both teams had ATG attacks.

Mind you I am not saying he can’t score in difficult conditions. He absolutely did when touring India and England but he lacks performance against RSA who had the best pace attack.

Again, he made runs in 2014 in RSA against Morkel, Philander and Steyn. Unless scoring 250 + runs over 5 innings at 67 doesn't count??

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Of course with Sanga and co theirs were purple patches of longer careers, whereas Smith's entire career has pretty much been a purple patch. 27 hundreds in 77 tests is absurd.

Yes.. But outstanding stats in a low scoring era?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Of course with Sanga and co theirs were purple patches of longer careers, whereas Smith's entire career has pretty much been a purple patch.

Sanga, Sachin, etc had huge strecthes of 100+ tests where they averaged 60+. Let's see how Smith's overall stats look like after (if?) he goes through some troughs that come with a full length career. He'll probably still average 60+ but let it happen first. Probably the best peak of all though.

 

[Chrish]

Again, he made runs in 2014 in RSA against Morkel, Philander and Steyn. Unless scoring 250 + runs over 5 innings at 67 doesn't count??

He scored 84, 36*, 49, 0, 100. Good series? Yes. Dominant? No.

 

[Slifer]

He scored 84, 36*, 49, 0, 100. Good series? Yes. Dominant? No.

I'd like you to point out a series where any of Viv, Lara, and especially Sachin did better vs a better attack....

 

[OverratedSanity]

Kohli sneaking into these top 10s is ITSTL. Bit of a hype job due to his record at home and in Australia imo. He's got some pretty big vulnerabilities (for an ATG, which he is) to bowl at that say, Sangakkara, Ponting, Lara et al did not have.

Yeah Im assuming people are doing a combined format thing when they include Kohli. In tests, he shouldn't be anywhere close to top 10 all time list.

 

[Bolo.]

Being poor in the 4th innings is only a meaningful hole in his record in the same sense that his failure to average close to 70 is... a non-issue. Earlier runs are more valuable, and its not an issue like being weak against spin.

Being 'only' very good against one particular side is not a hole.

Longevity is a major issue if you are trying to elevate him above players like Hobbs/Sobers/Sachin. He only played regularly from 2013-2017, and outside this period has typically been poor to fine, with one exceptional series.

2014-17 is 2/3 of his career runs, which is a crazy amount of weight for a purple patch of this length- the top ATGs mostly play for somewhere near 20 years. He has made a bunch of runs because he is in a team and era that played a bunch (or at least did in the period he was scoring heavily), but runs scored arent the best measure when you are comparing someone who played 55 tests in a few years to people who take decades to hit these numbers.

Not a fan of rating players too early in their careers. Done enough to be an ATG already, but top 2 or 10 isnt something you can do until a career is (at least) winding down.

 

[Slifer]

Sanga, Sachin, etc had huge strecthes of 100+ tests where they averaged 60+. Let's see how Smith's overall stats look like after (if?) he goes through some troughs that come with a full length career. He'll probably still average 60+ but let it happen first. Probably the best peak of all though.

I honestly think Smith has been going through his trough ever since Australia's last home series vs Pakistan and yet, he still averaged 40+ in 2 of 3 series. What a gun.

 

[Chrish]

I'd like you to point out a series where any of Viv, Lara, and especially Sachin did better vs a better attack....

Viv and Sachin didn't usually fail in the entire series; they played at least one impactful knock most of the time. Also, they aren't clearly no. 1 or have nothing to prove like you are proclaiming with Smith if he were to retire today. So, you need to provide convincing argument on why that's the case.

Lara didn't score a hundred till two Ws and Donald retired.. So, I don't rate him as high as some others do.

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah Im assuming people are doing a combined format thing when they include Kohli. In tests, he shouldn't be anywhere close to top 10 all time list.

well yeah in ODIs he's kinda the GOAT. Viv and a few others were way ahead of their time so fair enough for choosing them and also Kohli does have the meme knock out thing but in general he's insane. He's in a tier of his own in ODIs, and is so good he makes someone with 21 tons at an average of 48 look forgettable.

 

[Chrish]

Pujara probably averaged in 30s in last Australian tour but his knocks were crucial in winning the trophy for his team. If all you wanna do is look at average as a checklist, player X averaged Y against Z team so it's all good, then be my guest.

 

[Slifer]

Viv and Sachin didn't usually fail in the entire series; they played at least one impactful knock most of the time. Also, they aren't clearly no. 1 or have nothing to prove like you are proclaiming with Smith if he were to retire today. So, you need to provide convincing argument on why that's the case.

Lara didn't score a hundred till two Ws and Donald retired.. So, I don't rate him as high as some others do.

Lol you didn't answer my request but that's ok...because you can't. As it stands Smith's career isn't over so it's unfair to rank him as the 2nd best after the Don. But there's nothing in Smith's resume that precludes him from being ranked 2nd best when all is said and done. He's already accomplished enough...

 

[Slifer]

Pujara probably averaged in 30s in last Australian tour but his knocks were crucial in winning the trophy for his team. If all you wanna do is look at average as a checklist, player X averaged Y against Z team so it's all good, then be my guest.

Steve Smith's knocks in the last ashes allowed Australia to retain the ashes away to England. His 100 in 2014 (+ Johnson being in beast mode), allowed Australia to win the critical first test in RSA. As I recall, Oz were like a hundred or so and lost 3 or 4 wickets when Smith and marsh put on 200 runs under trying circumstances to put the pressure on RSA. It's like people are trying to make it seem like Smith has made easy runs or something. He's been the batting difference between Australia and paltry scores.....

 

[Coronis]

He scored 84, 36*, 49, 0, 100. Good series? Yes. Dominant? No.

Ah I didn’t realise any batsman aside from Bradman (who we are ignoring in this thread) dominated every great attack they ever played against. My mistake, this series should definitely be held against Smith.