Virat Kohli vs Rahane

[honestbharani]

Sun rises in the East.
@honestbharani : Some part of this must be attributed to Kohli.

Sun sets in the West.
@sunilz : All of this is Kohli's fault.

 

[Bolo.]

No, I am saying he was part of the same management to the same level who made some crappy selection decisions but also made some brilliant decisions that gave us our best test match bowling attack yet for the last 4 years now.

Surely this is not true in context of player development that you are ascribing to him? He pretty much has been the selection committee from what I have read, but his reach down lower must stop somehere.

 

[honestbharani]

Surely this is not true in context of player development that you are ascribing to him? He pretty much has been the selection committee from what I have read, but his reach down lower must stop somehere.

Again, you are just choosing to attribute everything that went wrong to only him and everything that went right to everyone else, but him. Like I said, its hard to argue that kind of "logic".

 

[Bolo.]

Again, you are just choosing to attribute everything that went wrong to only him and everything that went right to everyone else, but him. Like I said, its hard to argue that kind of "logic".

I am saying he was 100% involved in the uppermost decisions, which were clearly poor. I dont know how far down he was involved- he defs isnt selecting the Rajasthan under 15a, who for all I know might be the future of Indian cricket. All I know is I dont like the decisions I know he was responsible for.

It is very hard to judge a captain on behond the scenes stuff (particularly in this case for me, cos I am cluessless), but there are some things it is simple on, and his optics are not good in this regard.

 

[honestbharani]

I am saying he was 100% involved in the uppermost decisions,

You are right and those are the decisions I am talking about too, which have cost us dearly but also has helped us put together our greatest ever test attack.

 

[Bolo.]

You are right and those are the decisions I am talking about too, which have cost us dearly but also has helped us put together our greatest ever test attack.

I am arguing from a point of ignorance, and you probably wont be able to change my mind no matter what you say. I am everything I hate about internet debates in a nutshell, and need to be removed from this conversation.

Sorry, I love a good debate, it is frustrating dealing with people like this when you cant win, no matter how good your points are.

 

[honestbharani]

I am arguing from a point of ignorance, and you probably wont be able to change my mind no matter what you say. I am everything I hate about internet debates in a nutshell, and need to be removed from this conversation.

Sorry, I love a good debate, it is frustrating dealing with people like this when you cant win, no matter how good your points are.

Lol, no Bolo, I am not giving up. What I am trying to tell you is that, while everything you blame Virat for is true, there are also things which he has done to help us get where we are today as a team. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating that he has done both of these, but it is what it is.

I just dont like this narrative that people like sunilz or CCF have taken here, of blaming him for everything wrong but trying so hard to attribute everything right to someone else. That is just plain bias.

 

[_00_deathscar]

This I am not sure, I think he just has got lucky with Bumrah coming into the team during this period and Shami too..
Just imagine what could have been if these two played along with our Fab 4 in 90's and 2000's. We would have given Aus a tough fight.
We just lacked decent fast bowlers then.. Bumrah is indeed a once in a life time freakish fast bowling monster, who came out of no where to MI team especially due to IPL. He was indeed a find of MI basically and later on went on to represent India. I am not sure how much kohli contributed to his success.. Kohli definitely helped to bring in a fighting attitude to the team (after the dark days of Dhoni getting whitewashed everywhere), but he also misses innovative captaincy and being able to understand the opposition and counter attack them with change of plans by thinking on your feet. When going gets tough, he simply starts yelling at his own team mates, which puts more pressure on them and team morale goes down fast..

Kohli the batsman is world class and we are fortunate to have him in the team, but kohli the captain is debatable..

He's a better test captain than Dhoni. By miles.

ODIs, yea he's a bit crap there.

 

[Deleted member 38150]

Lol, no Bolo, I am not giving up. What I am trying to tell you is that, while everything you blame Virat for is true, there are also things which he has done to help us get where we are today as a team. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating that he has done both of these, but it is what it is.

I just dont like this narrative that people like sunilz or CCF have taken here, of blaming him for everything wrong but trying so hard to attribute everything right to someone else. That is just plain bias.

Not really, I do acknowledge the fact that Virat did make a change in changine the team's drive to go for a win especially Aus 2014 series. He fought to the best of his abilities, when most else would have given up. He is a ATG batsman, no argument there.. I do like kohli the batsman, only feel kohli the captain is not upto the mark..

But attributing a natural talent like Bumrah's success to him is something I can't accept honestly. That guy would have walked into any team and performed. In the management of a better captain, he would have been even more successful. Virat owes these overseas test victories to Bumrah/Shami and not the other way, not if you are honest about it. We had many more test centuries in the past than what our current batting order could manage overseas these days.. The only difference now is we are blessed with better bowlers who can get the opposition out twice. And that is because of the bowlers innate talent mainly, sure there are bowling coaches who work with them.. But that giving credit for Bumrah's achievementsto virat, is not logic really.

Think about the parallel case now.. How well Rahane managed Shardul Takur, Siraj and Washy to achieve a miracle victory in Australia.. He picked up from kohli when the team was in all time low, and still managed to deliver a lot more than what kohli could ever achieve.. Still I am not attirbuting the success of Siraj, Thakur to Rahane.. those are the achievements of the bowlers and captain plays a small part only..

I believe (just my opinion) Rahane will make a much better captain than kohli and kohli can achieve lot more as a batsman if he concentrates on his batting alone.. that way the Indian cricket gets best from both of them and we achieve more as a team..

 

[sunilz]

Not really, I do acknowledge the fact that Virat did make a change in changine the team's drive to go for a win especially Aus 2014 series. He fought to the best of his abilities, when most else would have given up. He is a ATG batsman, no argument there.. I do like kohli the batsman, only feel kohli the captain is not upto the mark..

But attributing a natural talent like Bumrah's success to him is something I can't accept honestly. That guy would have walked into any team and performed. In the management of a better captain, he would have been even more successful. Virat owes these overseas test victories to Bumrah/Shami and not the other way, not if you are honest about it. We had many more test centuries in the past than what our current batting order could manage overseas these days.. The only difference now is we are blessed with better bowlers who can get the opposition out twice. And that is because of the bowlers innate talent mainly, sure there are bowling coaches who work with them.. But that giving credit for Bumrah's achievementsto virat, is not logic really.

Think about the parallel case now.. How well Rahane managed Shardul Takur, Siraj and Washy to achieve a miracle victory in Australia.. He picked up from kohli when the team was in all time low, and still managed to deliver a lot more than what kohli could ever achieve.. Still I am not attirbuting the success of Siraj, Thakur to Rahane.. those are the achievements of the bowlers and captain plays a small part only..

I believe (just my opinion) Rahane will make a much better captain than kohli and kohli can achieve lot more as a batsman if he concentrates on his batting alone.. that way the Indian cricket gets best from both of them and we achieve more as a team..

You are a very good and intelligent poster. You should post more .

 

[honestbharani]

But attributing a natural talent like Bumrah's success to him is something I can't accept honestly. That guy would have walked into any team and performed.

And that is where you are completely wrong. Check his Ranji record before he made his debut.

Your other points are opinions, and that is fair enough. I don't agree with those and I feel it is just plain biased than based on any sort of facts but it's fine to think Rahane is a better captain than Kohli, and in certain aspects of captaincy, I do think Rahane is better. But to keep attributing the failures in team selection to him and then try to attribute the successes he has had with the same team selection as something due to "natural talent" of people is just intellectual dishonesty at best and plain biased posting at worst.

 

[Arachnodouche]

People like sunilz have dedicated social media narratives to drive this Kohli-Rahane rift. But luckily we have vadapavs like Rohit in the side to keep things on an even and humorous keel. Speaking of vadapavs, when we were kids and would play inside the building compound, there was a guy who would always opt to field by the gate just so he could sneak out in between overs and buy a vadapav from the vendor outside. Many a catch was dropped because of his occupied hands.

 

[Arachnodouche]

The Bumrah selection...people forgetting how flabbergasted everyone was when he made his debut in SA. Nobody expected him to be picked, and he didn't exactly cover himself in petals initially either. That things panned out the way they did is due to Bumrah's talent but also because of the people who let him in to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 38150]

And that is where you are completely wrong. Check his Ranji record before he made his debut.

Your other points are opinions, and that is fair enough. I don't agree with those and I feel it is just plain biased than based on any sort of facts but it's fine to think Rahane is a better captain than Kohli, and in certain aspects of captaincy, I do think Rahane is better. But to keep attributing the failures in team selection to him and then try to attribute the successes he has had with the same team selection as something due to "natural talent" of people is just intellectual dishonesty at best and plain biased posting at worst.

I am not biased,but it is your hero worship of kohli is blinding you from facts. Kohli is a terrible leader and India is winning despite his captaincy mistakes and not because of him. that's what we saw in Aus tour this time that, even with much lesser depleted team Rahane was able to win a tough series because of astute captaincy and keeping the team together and motivated them against all odds. This is such a simple truth and if you dont see it now, you never will and no point in discussing with you further. We lost so many matches from winning situations because of kohli's poor selections and chop and change policies and simply unimaginative captaincy. He doesn't trust his bowlers and can't think something out of the box in any situation. One simple example is how Rahane brought Ash right early in the innings aganst Smith and set him up for the catch. He trusted Ash's ability and gave him the freedom to execute his plans. Contrast it ith how poorly he used Bhuvi in Eng tour. Bhuvi with such a prodigal swing, could have won us the series in swinging conditions in Eng and he was bowled to the ground in ODIs and T20s and couldn't even play in tests and now he is no where in the scene. Such a bad management skills and couldn't see who is important and where and how to use your resources intelligently.. This is just one example, there were so many. I can't rememeber even any such instance when Kohli showed anything intelligent than the cringeworthy fist pumps and taunts against the opposition batsmen when it's the bowlers who got the wickets ffs.. He could't win anything noteworthy in ODIs other than some tri series cups involving SL/WI.. He couldn't win a single IPL in more than 10 seasons when he got the greatest T20 batsman of all time with him in his team. He is simply a poor captain and the fact that he is a ATG batsman is covering it up. BCCI is simply tolerating him as a captain because they dont have the guts to choose any one else for that job..[/QUOTE]

 

[Victor Ian]

What is the Indian selection process? How many are part of the selectors? Obviously kohli, as captain - but who else?

 

[honestbharani]

he was bowled to the ground in ODIs and T20s

You mean the 3 ODIs and T20Is we played before the tour?

I can see how biased you are and there is no point in talking sense on this matter with you. Simply put, you can't blame failures of selection on Virat alone and then spread the successes in the same front to literally every other person not named Virat. Its just biased BS without an iota of fact.

 

[ParwazHaiJunoon]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333008652832186368

 

[honestbharani]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333008652832186368

You found sunilz s twitter? ?

 

[RossTaylorsBox]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333008652832186368

Captaincy with Dhoni - lazy, useless at doing work, stealing the spoils afterwards
Captaincy without Dhoni - fun, playful, everybody loves you

 

[subshakerz]

Contrary to certain opinions, Kohli is a pretty good captain. Which is why it is hard to see him leave his post, even though Rahane it seems is a better captain.

Kohli can take credit for introducing an aggressive bowling streak and making India a near unbeatable home team. But his intensity and over aggressiveness have the feeling of putting the team on edge. Which is why when India under him are subjected to tougher pressure, they lose key moments. All said and done, under him, India have definitely underperformed away from home for a team that is supposed to be no.1. There is little doubt had Kohli been captain, India would never have won in Australia this year. And of course, in ODIs, he has yet to win a major cup.