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Welcome to the golden era of fast bowling

Teja.

Global Moderator
Shoiab teased in late 90s but then once he started losing it, became a joke by end of his career.
This is actually factually incorrect lol.

In the late 90s which is the first 13 tests which came between his debut in Nov 97 and the end of 1999, he took 34 wickets @ 40.4. He was mostly out on injury iirc for the next couple of years.

In the period between 2000-2007 which goes up to his retirement, he played 33 tests for 144 wickets @ 22.19.

He has a very strong case to be the second best pace bowler of the 00s after Mcgrath and had the second best bowling average and best strike rate of all fast bowlers with 100+ wickets in the 00s. See:

1611727672224.png
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
I don't think you can compare "pace factories" by the careers of the guys who came through. What matters is how they were when they came through. The Pak system, however it may have done so, has thrown up very talented and good pace bowling options for the national side. That they regressed or got injured or just could not make it, means there were problems at the top, but I think the supply chain worked ok, which is what people mean here by "pace bowling factory" or "fast bowling culture" etc. , IMHO.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
I think them ending up playing someone like Naseem shows there are issues in the factory but yeah it's laughable to suggest India has been anywhere close to Pakistan in pace bowling terms, we have had a better pace attack since maybe ~2017 or so in the past 75 years.
 

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
This is actually factually incorrect lol.

In the late 90s which is the first 13 tests which came between his debut in Nov 97 and the end of 1999, he took 34 wickets @ 40.4. He was mostly out on injury iirc for the next couple of years.

In the period between 2000-2007 which goes up to his retirement, he played 33 tests for 144 wickets @ 22.19.

He has a very strong case to be the second best pace bowler of the 00s after Mcgrath and had the second best bowling average and best strike rate of all fast bowlers with 100+ wickets in the 00s. See:

View attachment 27071
Thanks. I stand corrected.
 

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
I don't think you can compare "pace factories" by the careers of the guys who came through. What matters is how they were when they came through. The Pak system, however it may have done so, has thrown up very talented and good pace bowling options for the national side. That they regressed or got injured or just could not make it, means there were problems at the top, but I think the supply chain worked ok, which is what people mean here by "pace bowling factory" or "fast bowling culture" etc. , IMHO.
A very good point of view - but the results need to justify this theory. A good factory should make good final products and not just claim the Work-In-Progress has been of excellent quality.
 

Line and Length

Cricketer Of The Year
To be fair you were the one who brought up their best days.

I wouldn't have either Tait or Malinga in the top 20 bowlers in this era
" Tait and Malinga ...... on their very best days" is from your post a day prior to my responses regarding that pair.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
@Senile Sentry you have the right idea but your one-eyedness for India is stopping you getting to the point. Fact is Pakistan have only produced five fast bowlers who were good for any lengthy period in their history (Fazal doesn't count, he was a medium pacer). Arbitrarily cutting off at 180 wickets in order to exclude Shoaib (178 wickets) isn't needed, and while Asif only took 103 wickets we saw enough to know he was world class (and a world-class dickhead as well). You don't need to bring up the Indian bowlers, as India produced zero of that class in that period, the best being Kapil, Srinath and Zaheer who averaged 29.6, 30.5 and 32.8, pretty middle of the road.

With respect to Pakistan's 'pace factory' you just need to look at the remaining cast, albeit this is probably somewhat exaggerated by the brutally flat test pitches - in fact Pakistan have produced few bowlers with a 'good' (say average 25-30) in general, which is probably a testament to the conditions and also being poor away - as well as often playing two spinners at home.
You had Sarfraz, who average 32.8, and pretty much no-one else. Guys like Sikander and Azeem Hafeez would have faced strong competition even to get into the Packer or rebel tour depleted English and Australian sides of the period, and if anything the early nineties are even more barren. In the 00's the only other ones are Razzaq, who was an allrounder and averaged 36, and Gul, who was Chris Martin-level at best and benefited from a similar lack of competition. There's been no one else who's threatened. Amir fell away after comeback and Abbas is already nearly done with only 84 wickets to his name.

Where the kernel of truth in the 'Pakistan pace factory' lies is that they have been good in the 00s and 10s at producing guys who look good at first sight or on the speed gun, like Sami or Wahab (you could probably put Aaqib here too). If you look at the PSL or whatever there's no shortage of guys who can push past 145 km/h. Even now India hasn't done that, though the incentives are now there so I wouldn't be surprised if they start producing more quicker bowlers in the future. The thing is these guys - Musa being a good example - don't have the accuracy or smarts to make it, and the system is rubbish at nurturing them. That's one area where India has massively advanced, whereas in the nineties you had guys who had raw ingredients (say, Kuruvilla) not getting the support needed. Pakistan struggles there and keep looking for new wonder kids, whereas they should have made something of, say, Junaid.

Overall you are right. Pakistan has really had more of a hype factory, probably as the two Ws were so exciting and different compared to the predominant style of pace bowling at the time. So each new bowler is seen as the heir to that legacy. It feels like, at least in the English and Australian media bowlers are considered just that bit better or more exciting because they're Pakistani. The same even goes here, I remember being surprised how many people here seemed to rate Wahab when he came down to Australia in 16/17, when in fact he was rubbish and always had been. If you bring him up in conversation people will always mention the spell to Watson and ignore the rest of his career.
In comparison the West Indies from the late seventies to mid-eighties reeled off quick, good bowlers at a ludicrous rate. For no other team does Wayne Daniel play only ten tests. Pakistan have never, ever had anything to compare with that, and really aren't exceptional compared to other countries.
 
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Senile Sentry

International Debutant
@Senile Sentry you have the right idea but your one-eyedness for India is stopping you getting to the point. Fact is Pakistan have only produced five fast bowlers who were good for any lengthy period in their history (Fazal doesn't count, he was a medium pacer). Arbitrarily cutting off at 180 wickets in order to exclude Shoaib (178 wickets) isn't needed, and while Asif only took 103 wickets we saw enough to know he was world class (and a world-class dickhead as well). You don't need to bring up the Indian bowlers, as India produced zero of that class in that period, the best being Kapil, Srnith and Zaheer who averaged 29.6, 30.5 and 32.8, pretty middle of the road.

With respect to Pakistan's 'pace factory' you just need to look at the remaining cast, albeit this is probably somewhat exaggerated by the brutally flat test pitches - in fact Pakistan have produced few bowlers with a 'good' (say average 25-30) in general, which is probably a testament to the conditions and also being poor away - as well as often playing two spinners at home.
You had Sarfraz, who average 32.8, and pretty much no-one else. Guys like Sikander and Akeem Hafeez would have faced strong competition even to get into the Packer or rebel tour depleted English and Australian sides of the period, and if anything the early nineties are even more barren. In the 00's the only other ones are Razzaq, who was an allrounder and averaged 36, and Gul, who was Chris Martin-level at best and benefited from a similar lack of competition. There's been no one else who's threatened. Amir fell away after comeback and Abbas is already nearly done with only 84 wickets to his name.

Where the kernel of truth in the 'Pakistan pace factory' lies is that they have been good in the 00s and 10s at producing guys who look good at first sight or on the speed gun, like Sami or Wahab (you could probably put Aaqib here too). If you look at the PSL or whatever there's no shortage of guys who can push past 145 km/h. Even now India hasn't done that, though the incentives are now there so I wouldn't be surprised if they start producing more quicker bowlers in the future. The thing is these guys - Musa being a good example - don't have the accuracy or smarts to make it, and the system is rubbish at nurturing them. That's one area where India has massively advanced, whereas in the nineties you had guys who had raw ingredients (say, Kuruvilla) not getting the support needed. Pakistan struggles there and keep looking for new wonder kids, whereas they should have made something of, say, Junaid.

Overall you are right. Pakistan has really had more of a hype factory, probably as the two Ws were so exciting and different compared to the predominant style of pace bowling at the time. So each new bowler is seen as the heir to that legacy. It feels like, at least in the English and Australian media bowlers are considered just that bit better or more exciting because they're Pakistani. The same even goes here, I remember being surprised how many people here seemed to rate Wahab when he came down to Australia in 16/17, when in fact he was rubbish and always had been. If you bring him up in conversation people will always mention the spell to Watson and ignore the rest of his career.
In comparison the West Indies from the late seventies to mid-eighties reeled off quick, good bowlers at a ludicrous rate. For no other team does Wayne Daniel play only ten tests. Pakistan have never, ever had anything to compare with that, and really aren't exceptional compared to other countries.
Exceptional post. Thank you! You captured a lot of things which I cbf to write as am using a mobile device.

I disagree with regard to Asif. Yes, he was a talented one but his career was too short to be regarded as proof enough to classify him as a great. He was adequate against Aus, Eng and Ind and exceptional vs Kiwis and SL which made his numbers look better than it would have eventually.
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
With the passage of time, the plethora of pacers will be largely forgotten - unless they stood out for some exceptional reasons.
Imran as the 1st great fast bowler from the sub-continent
Wasim as arguably the greatest left arm fast bowler
Waqar for his inswinging yorkers and high strike rate
Shoaib for breaking the 100 mph barrier
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
I am sure Bumrah would end up with a great legacy as well. Played great role in 2 epic series triumphs down under and also won matches for us in South Africa, England and West Indies. I think that pretty much exceeds what any Asian pace bowler has achieved in his first 15-20 matches.

Once he is finished, with a lot more feathers in his cap(hopefully), he could go down as one of the best ever.
 

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
With the passage of time, the plethora of pacers will be largely forgotten - unless they stood out for some exceptional reasons.
Imran as the 1st great fast bowler from the sub-continent
Wasim as arguably the greatest left arm fast bowler
Waqar for his inswinging yorkers and high strike rate
Shoaib for breaking the 100 mph barrier
Yeah except for Shoiab.

From India, Kapil surely. And hopefully Bumrah in time. A strong finish could land Shami also in this group.
 

flibbertyjibber

Request Your Custom Title Now!
jesus look at stokes in that period

3430 @ 42
112 @ 27

edit: also the 6s stat is hilarious. he leads the way with 62 and mendis is his nearest rival with 28.
Twice the player Flintoff was to be fair. Never thought we'd be able to say that about anyone so soon.
 

trundler

Request Your Custom Title Now!
@Senile Sentry you have the right idea but your one-eyedness for India is stopping you getting to the point. Fact is Pakistan have only produced five fast bowlers who were good for any lengthy period in their history (Fazal doesn't count, he was a medium pacer). Arbitrarily cutting off at 180 wickets in order to exclude Shoaib (178 wickets) isn't needed, and while Asif only took 103 wickets we saw enough to know he was world class (and a world-class dickhead as well). You don't need to bring up the Indian bowlers, as India produced zero of that class in that period, the best being Kapil, Srinath and Zaheer who averaged 29.6, 30.5 and 32.8, pretty middle of the road.

With respect to Pakistan's 'pace factory' you just need to look at the remaining cast, albeit this is probably somewhat exaggerated by the brutally flat test pitches - in fact Pakistan have produced few bowlers with a 'good' (say average 25-30) in general, which is probably a testament to the conditions and also being poor away - as well as often playing two spinners at home.
You had Sarfraz, who average 32.8, and pretty much no-one else. Guys like Sikander and Akeem Hafeez would have faced strong competition even to get into the Packer or rebel tour depleted English and Australian sides of the period, and if anything the early nineties are even more barren. In the 00's the only other ones are Razzaq, who was an allrounder and averaged 36, and Gul, who was Chris Martin-level at best and benefited from a similar lack of competition. There's been no one else who's threatened. Amir fell away after comeback and Abbas is already nearly done with only 84 wickets to his name.

Where the kernel of truth in the 'Pakistan pace factory' lies is that they have been good in the 00s and 10s at producing guys who look good at first sight or on the speed gun, like Sami or Wahab (you could probably put Aaqib here too). If you look at the PSL or whatever there's no shortage of guys who can push past 145 km/h. Even now India hasn't done that, though the incentives are now there so I wouldn't be surprised if they start producing more quicker bowlers in the future. The thing is these guys - Musa being a good example - don't have the accuracy or smarts to make it, and the system is rubbish at nurturing them. That's one area where India has massively advanced, whereas in the nineties you had guys who had raw ingredients (say, Kuruvilla) not getting the support needed. Pakistan struggles there and keep looking for new wonder kids, whereas they should have made something of, say, Junaid.

Overall you are right. Pakistan has really had more of a hype factory, probably as the two Ws were so exciting and different compared to the predominant style of pace bowling at the time. So each new bowler is seen as the heir to that legacy. It feels like, at least in the English and Australian media bowlers are considered just that bit better or more exciting because they're Pakistani. The same even goes here, I remember being surprised how many people here seemed to rate Wahab when he came down to Australia in 16/17, when in fact he was rubbish and always had been. If you bring him up in conversation people will always mention the spell to Watson and ignore the rest of his career.
In comparison the West Indies from the late seventies to mid-eighties reeled off quick, good bowlers at a ludicrous rate. For no other team does Wayne Daniel play only ten tests. Pakistan have never, ever had anything to compare with that, and really aren't exceptional compared to other countries.
OTOH I agree with this regarding the wonderkid hype fetish. I was sorta getting at this with the wheel comment on the previous page. There has been too much chopping and changing resulting in reliable performers like Junaid being discarded far too early. Selection policies have been ****ed for a while and it's crazy to think Fawad Alam might not even be the worst injustice. See: Khan, Tabish. Pick guys who take FC wickets you ****ing morons.
 

Kirkut

International Regular
A very good point of view - but the results need to justify this theory. A good factory should make good final products and not just claim the Work-In-Progress has been of excellent quality.
When we talk of great Pakistani fast bowlers, we are talking of the pre T20 era when sports science wasn't advanced enough.

We are lucky to have Bumrah, improved Shami & Ishant, Bhuvaneshwar Kumar, Umesh Yadav and Siraj because of IPL. Bowlers now know what diets to eat, what kind of weight training is needed to be done for optimal performances on the field and how to practice self care to avoid injuries.

Pakistan on the other hand have always had a disorganized domestic cricket setup. Pitches have always been docile, facilities not good enough to be considered of international standards and oily diets. Yet after all of this they managed to churn out scores of fast bowlers who could easily crank up to 90 mph irrespective of whether they played international cricket or not. This raw talent is what Pakistani cricket has always been famous for! If you consider a sophisticated domestic cricket setup like England, they have struggled to produce fast bowlers in large numbers even after having all the facilities, that says a lot.
 

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