Josh Hazlewood vs James Anderson

[Flem274*]

Tbf, I've taken out Anderson's performances in England and West Indies in the last 6 years, where the Duke Ball is used, and if I've entered this properly into statsguru then he has averaged 28.38 with the kookaburra/SG ball. While he is significantly better with the Dukes, its not like he's been consistently poor with the Kookaburra either. I don't see how Hazlewood is 'obviously' the better all conditions bowler if he has not objectively performed better in all conditions. I think if Hazlewood continues like he is and gets 400+ he'll probably have the better overall career, but from what I can measure, Anderson has pretty much been the better performer throughout Hazelwood's entire career thus far.

this career chunk is fair for an improved performance but when we start splicing careers like this we can do it for others. tim southee's most recent 250 wickets come at a stupidly good average too but im not about to start calling him an atg. i reckon a dale steyn type would have an insane 6 year split somewhere.

without question an ATG

there are serious question marks over it though. i deadset cannot wait until tim southee gets 400 odd at 26 or so, which he is on track to do, because i think the goalposts will shift into a new province when i start the 'based on precedent, he's an atg' chat, which btw i won't believe a word of.

i kinda look at courtney walsh as being towards the base of the atg bowlers, and i wouldn't pick anderson over him unless we're in england. anderson is like the definition of atvg and if he was from any other country except perhaps india we wouldn't be hearing this 'nailed on atg' chat at all.

 

[FBU]

Doesn't help that England have poor fielders.... Anderson and Broad have had over 100 dropped catches each.

 

[BSM]

this career chunk is fair for an improved performance but when we start splicing careers like this we can do it for others. tim southee's most recent 250 wickets come at a stupidly good average too but im not about to start calling him an atg. i reckon a dale steyn type would have an insane 6 year split somewhere.

there are serious question marks over it though. i deadset cannot wait until tim southee gets 400 odd at 26 or so, which he is on track to do, because i think the goalposts will shift into a new province when i start the 'based on precedent, he's an atg' chat, which btw i won't believe a word of.

i kinda look at courtney walsh as being towards the base of the atg bowlers, and i wouldn't pick anderson over him unless we're in england. anderson is like the definition of atvg and if he was from any other country except perhaps india we wouldn't be hearing this 'nailed on atg' chat at all.

I never said he was an atg though? I don't think anyone did, we were just comparing him to Hazelwood who isn't an atg either. Also I agree to a certain extent with the issue pertaining to career splits, but I think using them in this context to compare players with varying career lengths is fair because it illustrates an interesting point. Whereas people might initially say Hazelwood is better because he has a better career average in all conditions, Anderson in the same sample size, from the same years, and against roughly the same opposition, has done better statistically both home and away. The tendency when judging Anderson seems to be to assume that he has averaged 30 odd away consistently when actually that average has consistently dropped from a very bad start when he was only young. This is not to say that those poor stats from early on shouldn't be considered when judging his entire career (like I said, I'm not trying to argue that he is an atg based off of these splits), but in this case it shows that for at least the entirety of Hazelwood's own career, Anderson has performed better, or at least to a similar level, and that's irrespective of the other 390 wickets he has taken as well on top of this latter period.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Will reply to Flem in more detail tomorrow. Here are some stats I've looked at briefly in the last few minutes

Since January 2010, Anderson has taken 452 wickets in 112 tests at 24.15. with 22 five wicket hauls - this represents 72% of his entire test match career. He is averaging just over 4 wickets per test. He has taken his best test figures (7-42) and match figures (10-45) since 2010 also
He has absolutely played the majority of these games in England, working out at 55%
63 out of these 112 tests have been played against Australia, India and Pakistan. In this time period, he has only played 20 tests against both Sri Lanka (11) and New Zealand (9) - which is significantly less than other nations

 

[jimmy101]

I've said it before and I will say it again, cricket is a far better game without dibbly dobblers in it

Somewhere in Christchurch, a shiver just went down Chris Harris' spine.

 

[Coronis]

Got to say some of the Anderson bashing on CW is getting a bit tiresome. Probably most of it is in jest and good-natured, due to how ridiculously good he is in home conditions, but feel like its run its course tbh. He's a phenomenal bowler who is without question an ATG, and the perception that he's suddenly this ordinary bowler when he departs England is low-key pretty insulting

Just my two cents

No he’s not an ordinary bowler but no he’s not “without question an ATG" either. There are questions all over his record, the likes of which no other ATG pace bowler has. Even say, Courtney Walsh, who is generally considered to be a low tier ATG pace bowler has just 1 hole in his record, his average in Australia. Jimmy Anderson is clearly a level below him and clearly a level below any other pace bowler who is called an ATG.

Will reply to Flem in more detail tomorrow. Here are some stats I've looked at briefly in the last few minutes

Since January 2010, Anderson has taken 452 wickets in 112 tests at 24.15. with 22 five wicket hauls - this represents 72% of his entire test match career. He is averaging just over 4 wickets per test. He has taken his best test figures (7-42) and match figures (10-45) since 2010 also
He has absolutely played the majority of these games in England, working out at 55%
63 out of these 112 tests have been played against Australia, India and Pakistan. In this time period, he has only played 20 tests against both Sri Lanka (11) and New Zealand (9) - which is significantly less than other nations

Can I chop up every players career to find stats to suit my arguments?

Spoiler

Kumar Sangakkara is the 2nd best (soon to be 3rd thanks to TPC) batsman of all time. From January 2006, he scored 8578 runs in 81 tests at 64.01, with 30 centuries - this represents 60% of his entire test match career. He has scored his highest score (319) since 2006 also.
He has absolutely played the majority of these games in Sri Lanka, working out at 54%
44 of these 81 tests have been played against England, India and Pakistan. In this time period, he has only played 13 tests against both New Zealand (8) and the West Indies (5) - which is significantly less than the other nations.

Even over this period Anderson still averages 30+ in 5 countries (Australia, India, New Zealand, South Africa, Sri Lanka). Granted in England, UAE and the Windies over this period he averages close to 20. Clearly he is a very condition dependant bowler, and forgive me if I'm wrong but players like that e.g David Warner and Cheteshwar Pujara are regarded as somewhat below ATG level, no?

 

[honestbharani]

why is this a discussion on Anderson being an ATG or not? FWIW, I think Anderson is great, but not ATG and Hazlewood, at least so far, is in the same bracket. And between them, I will take Anderson.

Not a fan of comparing players at different stages of their careers anyways when they are still playing. Still think Anderson will end up a better test player and with a better test record than Hazlewood.

 

[Coronis]

Not a fan of comparing players at different stages of their careers anyways when they are still playing. Still think Anderson will end up a better test player and with a better test record than Hazlewood.

Yeah I hate this too. On the topic of the title, at this point I'd take Anderson. Far too early to tell for Hazlewood though, his career trajectory could still take him anywhere.

 

[Daemon]

Are there people who genuinely believe Anderson < Haze. I thought it was just trolling.

 

[Prince EWS]

Are there people who genuinely believe Anderson < Haze. I thought it was just trolling.

Well I think Haze is better right now if that counts.

 

[Daemon]

I mean in terms of what they've done up to this point in their respective careers.

 

[Burgey]

Got to say some of the Anderson bashing on CW is getting a bit tiresome. Probably most of it is in jest and good-natured, due to how ridiculously good he is in home conditions, but feel like its run its course tbh. He's a phenomenal bowler who is without question an ATG, and the perception that he's suddenly this ordinary bowler when he departs England is low-key pretty insulting

Just my two cents

Mate he literally got dropped for the current test match. ATGs don't get dropped at the stage of their careers he is at.

 

[Bahnz]

Mate he literally got dropped for the current test match. ATGs don't get dropped at the stage of their careers he is at.

Well, tbf most ATG's would have been retired for 2 to 3 years by the stage Anderson is at, so that's not saying much.

 

[cnerd123]

Mate he literally got dropped for the current test match. ATGs don't get dropped at the stage of their careers he is at.

he didn't get dropped, England are working a rotation system with him and Broad so they can blood new fast bowlers + manage workload.

 

[Burgey]

he didn't get dropped, England are working a rotation system with him and Broad so they can blood new fast bowlers + manage workload.

He got dropped. FFS it's embarrassing that a bloke has, what, 600 poles and isn't an automatic starter? It's the first test of the series. Imagine the first test in 2006/07 - Jeez Pigeon, we're going to let you rest and sit this one out. FMD get in the bin. It's a joke. That SL line up is barely club standard.

 

[cnerd123]

He got dropped. FFS it's embarrassing that a bloke has, what, 600 poles and isn't an automatic starter? It's the first test of the series. Imagine the first test in 2006/07 - Jeez Pigeon, we're going to let you rest and sit this one out. FMD get in the bin. It's a joke. That SL line up is barely club standard.

Exactly. Why burn out your ATG quick on Game 1 against a sub-par side when you have 17 Tests scheduled for the year.

He'll have more of a role to play when the India tour rolls around

 

[Burgey]

Oh please. He'll get "rested" there too. It's an indictment on a supposed "all time great." Get with the program, ATGs don't miss games when they're fit to play.

 

[Line and Length]

Oh please. He'll get "rested" there too. It's an indictment on a supposed "all time great." Get with the program, ATGs don't miss games when they're fit to play.

As a supposed student of the game, you are either (a) stirring or (b) showing a complete lack of understanding of player management - especially on the sub-continent.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume it's (a).

BTW - at this time Hazelwood is a better bowler - and so he should be when considering their ages.

 

[Gob]

Exactly. Why burn out your ATG quick on Game 1 against a sub-par side when you have 17 Tests scheduled for the year.

He'll have more of a role to play when the India tour rolls around

17 tests wait what?

 

[Gob]

I think big josh gets overshadowed by Cumstarc