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3rd Test at the SCG, Sydney, 7 Jan - 11 Jan 2021

cnerd123

cnerd123

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harsh.ag said:
Well you can't really praise the duo for something someone does at arrival. But if he's regressed under them, then yeah some blame definitely belongs there. Even if not a lot.
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You can praise the duo for creating an environment where Agarwal could come in, feel comfortable, and perform so well straight away.

It's always hard to assign blame/praise for all these things because we don't actually know what's going on. For all we know Shastri, Virat and the coaches have pointed out these mistakes to Agarwal, but he's the one that's unable or unwilling to make the changes. Likewise it could be the environment in the dressing room is toxic but guys like Agarwal are strong enough mentally to go out and perform anyways.

What's important is we should be consistent in how we evaluate the impact these two have. If everything that goes wrong with a player is their fault, then everything that goes right is to their credit too. It would be inconsistent to blame them for Agarwal's shortcomings, but then to attribute the success of someone like Jadeja to other people.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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cnerd123 said:
For all we know Shastri, Virat and the coaches have pointed out these mistakes to Agarwal, but he's the one that's unable or unwilling to make the changes.
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Sometimes you also get into some bad habits which you work hard on in practice, but to which you revert when you're playing. The lack of balance in that stance is something he would have to be aware of, surely.
 
Senile Sentry

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
cnerd123 said:
I generally agree with this, but a young player like Shaw is going to be coming into the international setup extremely raw. He is 21 years old with just 3 years of FC cricket under his belt. A fifth of his career FC games have been Tests. Ideally you would want the national team setup to accelerate his development, if not maintain the rate of his development at the same level as it would be if he was grinding it out in domestix and working with his own coaches. If he's out there in Australia now and not learning anything from this experience, it would be a failure of the Shastri coaching team.

Agarwal, on the other hand, is 29 years old and has 7 years of FC experience, along with having been part of the U19 setup prior to that. As you say, you can't expect Shastri and co. overhaul his technique at this stage. Minor tweaks sure, but most of the coaching Agarwal should expect to receive at this level will be around mindset/gameplan rather than technique.
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I do not think handling people with kid gloves work at test level whether you are 18 or 30, the rigor and pressure is the same at the highest level, so are the requirements.

I think where Shastri went wrong is in assessing that Shaw was better prepared than Gill to make the XI. Almost everyone thought otherwise, especially given Shaw's abysmal run of form of late. Further I agree that national coaches should be on the vigil to note any discrepancies in his technique and highlight it. Shaw s issues were clear upfront against incoming deliveries. And he had done nothing to address it. Perhaps nothing can be done in such a short span and rework required at a specialist level - Shaw would have to go back to the academy and work this out and then trial it in domestic.

None of this however establish that national coach or manager are responsible to develop inherently faulty issues in batsmen. In a professional setup, such issues should be identified much before - preferably by selectors and sufficient replacements are provided to the national team.

As tactician, Shastri has been brilliant in this series so far. The leg side theory has been brilliantly used.
 
vcs

vcs

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Starfighter said:
Looking at the Cricinfo headline, it's a good time to express my contention that the phrase 'knocked over' should only be used when the batsman is out bowled.
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Warne is the worst culprit for abusing this phrase.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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Burgey said:
Sometimes you also get into some bad habits which you work hard on in practice, but to which you revert when you're playing. The lack of balance in that stance is something he would have to be aware of, surely.
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For example, in the heat and drama of a match thread I occasionally make the mistake of reading cnerd's posts, despite reminding myself not to waste time doing so.
 
cnerd123

cnerd123

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Senile Sentry said:
I do not think handling people with kid gloves work at test level whether you are 18 or 30, the rigor and pressure is the same at the highest level, so are the requirements.

I think where Shastri went wrong is in assessing that Shaw was better prepared than Gill to make the XI. Almost everyone thought otherwise, especially given Shaw's abysmal run of form of late. Further I agree that national coaches should be on the vigil to note any discrepancies in his technique and highlight it. Shaw s issues were clear upfront against incoming deliveries. And he had done nothing to address it. Perhaps nothing can be done in such a short span and rework required at a specialist level - Shaw would have to go back to the academy and work this out and then trial it in domestic.

None of this however establish that national coach or manager are responsible to develop inherently faulty issues in batsmen. In a professional setup, such issues should be identified much before - preferably by selectors and sufficient replacements are provided to the national team.
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Yea I generally agree. I just feel that if you're going to pick a kid that's raw, you then take on the responsibility of doing the polishing. If you can't, then you don't pick him and let him work his game out at lower levels with the coaches/facilities available to him there.

I have to assume everyone involved knew Shaw was raw when he got selected, and that they have been trying to work on him. As you say, not much can be done in such a short space to fix a player's technique. For all we know Agarwal and Shaw's bad habits have crept in due to a lack of cricket prior to this series - all they've had is IPL where the coaching is non-existent, and before that they were in lockdown. The team arrives in Australia, coaching staff sees the flaws, does what they can to help, gives them a chance to perform, and now they've both failed they're out of the XI. Nothing you can really blame Shastri and co. for tbh.
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
harsh.ag said:
Well you can't really praise the duo for something someone does at arrival. But if he's regressed under them, then yeah some blame definitely belongs there. Even if not a lot.
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Nah... many players dont do well in new environment on debut. I think if you are gonna blame his current failures on the management, you also have to attribute their previous success to the same management.
 
Senile Sentry

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
harsh.ag said:
Well you can't really praise the duo for something someone does at arrival. But if he's regressed under them, then yeah some blame definitely belongs there. Even if not a lot.
Click to expand...
A national coach can't babysit top level players and make them do stuff. How does we know that Mayank s issues with backlift is not a result of the umpteen IPL games and other LOIs he has played in the interim ? What is it is the IPL coach who asked him to make this adjustment to give more power to his shots? Its all conjecture and hypothesis at this moment.

Jadeja has improved his batting in the same time by leaps and bounds and now can make the team as a specialist batsman. Do we attribute this too to Shastri then ?
 
Senile Sentry

Senile Sentry

International Debutant
OverratedSanity said:
Thumbnail is misleading but Gavaskar spot on here

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Watching the 2018 series replays, wierdly, he doesn't have same backlift at all playing Lyon. It seems a very conscious decision to employ this..

It was embarrassing to see his bat getting stuck behind pad at MCG. Well done Aussies to spot this and bowl to a plan.
 
harsh.ag

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
honestbharani said:
Nah... many players dont do well in new environment on debut. I think if you are gonna blame his current failures on the management, you also have to attribute their previous success to the same management.
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Senile Sentry said:
A national coach can't babysit top level players and make them do stuff. How does we know that Mayank s issues with backlift is not a result of the umpteen IPL games and other LOIs he has played in the interim ? What is it is the IPL coach who asked him to make this adjustment to give more power to his shots? Its all conjecture and hypothesis at this moment.

Jadeja has improved his batting in the same time by leaps and bounds and now can make the team as a specialist batsman. Do we attribute this too to Shastri then ?
Click to expand...
Again, you guys have to go a little bit more nuanced. "Some blame", "some praise" is the way to go in most cases. There are multiple factors which result in success/failure of players and it's different with each player.

If the IPL caused Mayank's technique issues, and it's likely it did, then *some* blame belongs with the team management for not working with him in the lead up to the tests to correct it *more*. Most of it belongs with the player.

For Mayank's good performances when he first arrived, *some* praise to go to the management. But, this some is less than the some from above. And it's reasonable to disagree.

For Jadeja, it's been clear that the management has done a good job with his selection and rotation policy and deserve a lot of credit given the other options of Pandya, Ashwin, Kuldeep available. But most of the praise does still belong to Jadeja himself, of course.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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harsh.ag said:
If the IPL caused Mayank's technique issues, and it's likely it did, then *some* blame belongs with the team management for not working with him in the lead up to the tests to correct it *more*.
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Yeah, if he doesn’t adjust his technique to the format he’s playing that’s a combo of being on him and the relevant coaches, surely.
 
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