The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[mr_mister]

But then he has micro periods where he's coming off a big series and looks fatigued. He's been ridiculous, of course. Better peak than Ponting even but it's still too early. We're just falling for the age old would've been better if he'd played less fallacy for the millionth time here.

People are so used to Smith getting 2 tons a series now his 3 important fifties against NZ last series had people thinking he's lost his mojo coz there were no centuries

The bar of expectation for Smith has been raised so high now due to the constant madman performances

 

[trundler]

I genuinely think though that the bowlers have been better and decks have been fairer than they were during Ponting's peak.

Also Ponting never had any England or India series like those that Smith has had.

The immense Ashes and India record are definitely 2 strings up his bow which Ponting didn't gather. I feel like bowling quality has only been significantly better for half of Smith's peak though. Until the mid 10s, we still had some serious roads so I'll say Tendulkar had to contend with more difficult batting conditions in the 90s for sure.

 

[mr_mister]

Raw average is a pretty dumb way to compare a guy who's played 24 with a guy who's effectively played for 8 though. Might as well compare some dude who averages 80 over 2.5 years with Smith.

I just didnt want to go down the road of selective part of careers coz it's less fair. Since his role changed to specialist batsmen rather than bowling allrounder around the 2013 ashes he's averaged like 75 for 60 tests which I don't think anyone has come close to

 

[trundler]

I am aware if you tinker with the stats you can produce different results. My comment was about the raw number

A 12 year stretch isn't cherry picking, especially when it's longer than Smith's whole career. The ridiculousness of a 24 year career with 2 separate peaks is often overlooked here. I just don't understand how Tendulkar would've been a better batsman if he'd retired at 30, when he had been good enough for long enough to be seen as better than Viv and Chappell.

I just didnt want to go down the road of selective part of careers coz it's less fair. Since his role changed to specialist batsmen rather than bowling allrounder around the 2013 ashes he's averaged like 75 for 60 tests which I don't think anyone has come close to

Probably Sobers or Sanga.

 

[Teja.]

I just didnt want to go down the road of selective part of careers coz it's less fair. Since his role changed to specialist batsmen rather than bowling allrounder around the 2013 ashes he's averaged like 75 for 60 tests which I don't think anyone has come close to

Yeah but Tendulkar has averaged 64 over 9 years between 93-02 as well for 80+ tests.

 

[mr_mister]

And yeah, he's had 4 series(India 14/15, 2017 and ashes 17/18 and 2019) where he's scored 3+ tons in each one. And these are I'd say 2 of the 3 strongest test nations of the era

 

[trundler]

And yeah, he's had 4 series(India 14/15, 2017 and ashes 17/18 and 2019) where he's scored 3+ tons in each one. And these are I'd say 2 of the 3 strongest test nations of the era

India still had minnow bowling in 2015..
I'll happily call Ashes 2019 the best batting performance over a series in at least 20 years though. And the 17 series in India was epic too.

 

[Teja.]

The other batsman who I rate on Tendulkar's level like Hammond, Hutton, Hobbs, Sobers and Headley are also 2 decade players who also approximately played from when they were 18-20 to 38-41 and some of them average close to 60 over 2 decades. There's a reason why they are such big fixtures in all-time lists.

 

[bagapath]

Versus:
B Richards
G Smith
V Richards
Sanga
S Smith
Flower
Botham
Wasim
Warne
Garner
Ambrose

Barry Richards played 0 tests in the last 50 years. you might be better off taking Hutton and hobbs if you're going to ignore that fact.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah fair enough but just trying to highlight how many important series he had where he seemed impossible to get out cheaply and won the bat off his blade

Since his breakthrough ton he's got 26 tons in about 60 tests. His amazing average doesn't even tell the whole story coz he doesn't have many doubles or not outs to his name.

Getting a bit meta now but yeah the century ratio is a rate only Bradman and Headley kept up in their careers and Smith for far longer than Headley

 

[OverratedSanity]

@Teja. Headley was barely a one decade player Tbf. But I agree with your broader point.

Sobers especially averaged 75 across a span of 11 years which is way more impressive than say Ponting's peak which came in a concentrated 5 year spell

 

[Teja.]

@Teja. Headley was barely a one decade player Tbf. But I agree with your broader point.

Sobers especially averaged 75 across a span of 11 years which is way more impressive than say Ponting's peak which came in a concentrated 5 year spell

Tbf, he did come back unsuccessfully in 1954 after the war after starting his career in 1930. His average was close to 70 in his first decade before that series. But yeah.

 

[stephen]

I mean if Smith can keep this up for another 3 years (age 35) then surely he's a lock for the first XI. But even now he's had 7 years averaging 69. That's insane by any standard. Especially since he's done so well in Australia, England and India, three places where conditions are vastly different.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah I'm not saying Headley is on their level just saying Smith and Bradman are the only ones who have managed a rate of a ton every 2 games for a long period of tests. And that Headley happened to do it as well over his far shorter career but he's not relevant to my argument

 

[honestbharani]

Smith's Ashes 2019 >> India 2017 series. I think people under rate just how flat the decks, especially for the last two tests were in the India 2017 series. His Pune knock was absolutely gun but he was also dropped like 6 times.

 

[honestbharani]

a ton every 2 games for a long period of tests.

Define long

 

[mr_mister]

Now we're getting into disqualifying his numbers for one reason or another which is where i lose interest

 

[honestbharani]

Now we're getting into disqualifying his numbers for one reason or another which is where i lose interest

Yet find it interesting when you can do it to Sanga and Sachin and literally everyone else...

 

[mr_mister]

Define long

Well he hit 26 tons in 56 tests from his first to his most recent so let's go with that number. Has anyone hit more than 20 in 56 tests discounting Bradman?

 

[mr_mister]

Yet find it interesting when you can do it to Sanga and Sachin and literally everyone else...

Nah i just wanted to keep it raw but we've entered the slicing up of career arguments