The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

The only reason that 05 test wasn't a bigger deal was because Australia had lost the 05 Ashes. Particularly the batsmen was as good of a lineup as many ATG teams that get selected in this thread.

 

[bagapath]

David Boon's XI

1) Gordon Greenidge,
2) Sunil Gavaskar,
3) Donald Bradman,
4) Viv Richards,
5) Allan Border,
6) Garfield Sobers,
7) Ian Healy,
8) Shane Warne,
9) Malcolm Marshall,
10) Richard Hadlee,
11) Dennis Lillee.

From: Sydenham, Richard. In a League of their Own: 100 Cricket Legends Select Their World XI . JMD Media Ltd. Kindle Edition.

I may change the batting order from 7-10 to Hadlee, Healy, Marshall and Warne. Otherwise I can take this team to war

 

[honestbharani]

I know "bias" is like your favourite word but I don't think you're using it right. If you mean to say that he favours players that he thinks are good and would represent a team well, that's literally what everyone would do when picking a team.

Nah...it was an obviously biased side he picked. You can continue pretending that word does not mean what it does though.

 

[bagapath]

Lillee, Warne and Gilchrist make it to most all time XIs. Bradman is the Gold Standards anyways.

Richards and Sobers are also obvious choices

Hobbs, Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Imran and Barnes make it to top five of every list in their specialty.

What is his bias... where is he biased? bias sounds like he is choosing inferior cricketers over more qualified ones.
Who will you replace in this team? And with whom?

Even his second XI is good to go as it is!

 

[honestbharani]

lol.. Lillee does not belong in that conversation. His record outside of Aus/Eng is similar to Barry Richards. Warne, the same thing. Gichrist, yes. Barnes no.

Lillee, Warne, Barnes is the obvious Anglocentric bias.

 

[bagapath]

Those three make it to most all time XIs. It is not like he picked some random guys. You can say it is his team, his choice. Still two out of the three made it to the Cricinfo world XI which was selected by a team. cut him some slack.

lillee and Warne make it to most of the teams dreamt by cricketers. Can see their names all over the Sydenham book. they are worthy candidates.

 

[honestbharani]

Those three make it to most all time XIs. It is not like he picked some random guys. You can say it is his team, his choice. Still two out of the three made it to the Cricinfo world XI which was selected by a team. cut him some slack.

lillee and Warne make it to most of the teams dreamt by cricketers. Can see their names all over the Sydenham book. they are worthy candidates.

Cricinfo's list was biased too, have a look at the guys who picked.

I am not denying him his right to pick a biased XI. But it is an obviously biased XI.

 

[trundler]

That view on Lillee is a specifically CW thing. Even on CW we would only have Marshall and Ambrose ahead of Lillee (McGrath hadn't retired yet and his stature has grown since, Steyn hadn't started yet) for sure and he's excluded them altogether based on some weird view on aesthetics. Plenty of West Indian batsmen show it wasn't some sort of national bias. If you mean he was biased in favour of leggies who give it a big rip, or maybe for bowling all rounders, that's just a preference at that point. Between Trumper and Tendulkar, there's a fair bit of diversity. Dev and especially Qadir are much weirder picks than Lillee.

 

[Coronis]

All XI’s are biased unless you’re picking them purely based on some statisticial measurement. Even then, its biased to whatever stats that person finds most important. Richie’s XI is fine, far better than most you see from ex-players/commentators.

 

[bagapath]

Kapil Dev’s XI

1) Sunil Gavaskar
He was so technically correct and had so much time to play his shots. Sunny liked to play himself in before playing extravagant shots as he used to assess the bowler’s strengths and weaknesses. Once he was in he really knew how to construct an innings, and he would play each ball on its merits.
2) Virender Sehwag
Here we have a ruthless batsman who has a better strike rate than most, especially among the openers. I obviously didn’t get to play with or against him, but it is clear that he has changed the face of cricket. Bowlers seek relief from his punishing stroke-play.
3) Viv Richards
I have to have a player of Viv’s ability in my team. His greatest strength was that he never let a bowler dominate him. He could hit any ball for four off any bowler. Viv could play well on all types of wickets, whether quick or turning tracks.
4) Sachin Tendulkar
Sachin is the most talented batsman that I have ever seen, though it’s close between him and Viv. Where Viv sometimes hit from outside leg to off or vice-versa, Sachin is more technically correct, but still with the same destructive results.
5) Brian Lara
When he got going he was capable of winning matches on his own, able to score big runs. I remember when India toured the West Indies in 1989 he scored a big hundred (182 while captain of West Indies Under-23s) against us in a side game. He was quick on his feet and his movement was excellent. He looked an interesting player for the future.
6) Imran Khan
He was a clever and crafty player, particularly with the ball. His ability to swing the old ball was better than any other bowler of recent times. I wouldn’t say he was the most talented cricketer, but he would never try to cross the boundaries of his limitations – batting or bowling.
7) Richard Hadlee
After Lillee, I think Hadlee was the best fast bowler of my time; he was what I would call a computer bowler, so perfect. When he began to lose his pace, his use of the ball was the best I have seen. He would always make the batsman struggle and his line and length was awkward.
8) Adam Gilchrist
A totally ruthless batsman, which is how I would want my team to be. He tried to win matches rather than survive in them. He is the same as Sehwag, as someone who changed the way the game was played, especially for wicketkeepers.
9) Wasim Akram
He is the most difficult left-arm bowler I have ever seen, who was always capable of surprising the batsman at any time. Wasim was certainly one of the great bowlers of my time – he was so good. When you needed a breakthrough nobody could be better than him. He was genuinely quick and moved it around too.
10) Shane Warne
He is the best spin bowler I have ever seen; with great variety and the sharpness to turn the ball a long way. He never performed so well against India, but that is not too important, he is still a great bowler in my opinion.
11) Dennis Lillee
What can I say about Dennis – he would have to be the fast bowler’s dream! Any fast bowler would want his run-up, his action, his pace, his aggression, the way he rattled batsmen – he was everything as far as quick bowling goes.

quite a cool team actually

 

[bagapath]

Cricinfo's list was biased too, have a look at the guys who picked.

I am not denying him his right to pick a biased XI. But it is an obviously biased XI.

Nah

most people would pick warne over murali anyways. This is practically a given thing.

Barnes is a great pick if u believe his stats would hold up in any era. Legend.

lillee is a good pick even if you compare him with other great choices. It’s not like he chose Brett Lee.

i don’t see any “bias”

Benaud’s XI is as good as it gets.

 

[Nintendo]

Kapil Dev’s XI

1) Sunil Gavaskar
He was so technically correct and had so much time to play his shots. Sunny liked to play himself in before playing extravagant shots as he used to assess the bowler’s strengths and weaknesses. Once he was in he really knew how to construct an innings, and he would play each ball on its merits.
2) Virender Sehwag
Here we have a ruthless batsman who has a better strike rate than most, especially among the openers. I obviously didn’t get to play with or against him, but it is clear that he has changed the face of cricket. Bowlers seek relief from his punishing stroke-play.
3) Viv Richards
I have to have a player of Viv’s ability in my team. His greatest strength was that he never let a bowler dominate him. He could hit any ball for four off any bowler. Viv could play well on all types of wickets, whether quick or turning tracks.
4) Sachin Tendulkar
Sachin is the most talented batsman that I have ever seen, though it’s close between him and Viv. Where Viv sometimes hit from outside leg to off or vice-versa, Sachin is more technically correct, but still with the same destructive results.
5) Brian Lara
When he got going he was capable of winning matches on his own, able to score big runs. I remember when India toured the West Indies in 1989 he scored a big hundred (182 while captain of West Indies Under-23s) against us in a side game. He was quick on his feet and his movement was excellent. He looked an interesting player for the future.
6) Imran Khan
He was a clever and crafty player, particularly with the ball. His ability to swing the old ball was better than any other bowler of recent times. I wouldn’t say he was the most talented cricketer, but he would never try to cross the boundaries of his limitations – batting or bowling.
7) Richard Hadlee
After Lillee, I think Hadlee was the best fast bowler of my time; he was what I would call a computer bowler, so perfect. When he began to lose his pace, his use of the ball was the best I have seen. He would always make the batsman struggle and his line and length was awkward.
8) Adam Gilchrist
A totally ruthless batsman, which is how I would want my team to be. He tried to win matches rather than survive in them. He is the same as Sehwag, as someone who changed the way the game was played, especially for wicketkeepers.
9) Wasim Akram
He is the most difficult left-arm bowler I have ever seen, who was always capable of surprising the batsman at any time. Wasim was certainly one of the great bowlers of my time – he was so good. When you needed a breakthrough nobody could be better than him. He was genuinely quick and moved it around too.
10) Shane Warne
He is the best spin bowler I have ever seen; with great variety and the sharpness to turn the ball a long way. He never performed so well against India, but that is not too important, he is still a great bowler in my opinion.
11) Dennis Lillee
What can I say about Dennis – he would have to be the fast bowler’s dream! Any fast bowler would want his run-up, his action, his pace, his aggression, the way he rattled batsmen – he was everything as far as quick bowling goes.

quite a cool team actually

Richie and now kapil dev, what is up with these recent all time 11's and putting gilchrist at 8, how do you reach the conclusion that imran khan should be batting ahead of gilchrist in any circumstance.

 

[Red]

Lillee, Warne, Barnes is the obvious Anglocentric bias.

Don't start this garbage.


5 out of his 11 are not "Anglo".

 

[trundler]

Bradman wasn't human so he doesn't count either.

 

[Red]

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

Only selecting retired players.

I think you could replace Hadlee with Imran if you liked, and you could argue for any of Lara, Hammond, Chappell or Kallis over Tendulkar or Viv, and you can argue Murali/Warne, but all in all I think this is pretty bang on.

 

[aussie tragic]

Richie and now kapil dev, what is up with these recent all time 11's and putting gilchrist at 8, how do you reach the conclusion that imran khan should be batting ahead of gilchrist in any circumstance.

Richie's XI was not in batting order as he had stipulated same criteria to align all 3 XI's

"His criteria was to include a pair of openers, specialist bats at 3, 4 and 5, all-rounder at 6, fast-bowling all-rounder at 7, wicketkeeper-batsman at 8, legspin bowler at 9 and pace bowlers at 10 and 11"

This is why Imran is above Gilchrist in his first XI, why Hadlee is above Marsh and O"Reilly above Lindwall in 2nd XI

 

[trundler]

Gavaskar over Hutton or Ambrose/Steyn in for one of the pacers would be a like for like substitution too.

 

[Red]

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

Gavaskar
Sutcliffe
Hammond
Chappell
Lara
Kallis
Knott +
Imran
Steyn
Ambrose
Murali

Greenidge
Smith
Ponting
Sangakkara
Walcott
Miller
Healy +
Wasim
Lillee
OReilly
Waqar


Lawry
Morris
Dravid
Weekes
Border
Waugh
Bari +
Davidson
Holding
Trueman
Grimmett

Sehwag
Hayden
Younis
Harvey
McCabe
Worrell
Dhoni+
Lindwall
Garner
Roberts
Laker

Langer
Haynes
Kanhai
G.Pollock
DeVillers
Kapil
Marsh +
S.Pollock
Benaud
Bedser
Donald

- haven't included players whose careers are still active - Smith and Kohli likely to come in fairly high on retirement
- try to include someone in the top six who can bowl a little
- try to have a number 8 who can bat a little
- include players in the position they batted in as far as possible
- discounted early era players who I am never sure how to judge- Gregory/Bradman/McCabe are about as early as I go
- I've probably overlooked someone obvious

 

[aussie tragic]

@Red Hill
Your ATG 6th XI is maybe one XI too far. I mean Kapil Dev batting #6 in a Test XI

...plus I think Bob Simpson is much better than Langer and he bowls and catches too

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lillee, Warne, Barnes is the obvious Anglocentric bias.

Everyone knew that's what you meant, it's what you always mean. Don't know why you tried to deny it.