The protege Ravindra Jadeja vs Shane Warne his early days mentor

[Fuller Pilch]

Jadeja averages 19 vs the two best teams of his era.

No he doesn't. (33.68 vs NZ including over 60 when he plays here).

 

[CodeOfWisden]

The team India facial hair meme is literally the only thing more embarrassing in world cricket than the line up Australia fielded the last time India toured here.

The team which australia fielded in 2018 was their best team minus smith and warner.
I bet India will thump aussies in asia even if we remove kohli and pujara.

 

[Burgey]

Perhaps he means with the bat

 

[TheJediBrah]

If mentioning Indian players is what bothers you, here are a few examples of non indian players.

Wasim Akram : 42 home, 61 abroad
Imran Khan : 38 home, 50 abroad
Javed Miandad : 60 home, 64 abroad
Waqar Younis : 33 home, 49 abroad

If you have something constructive to add to the discussion, you are free to do so, rather than posting the highlighted part which I never meant.

I am still genuinely interested in knowing if certain unconscious bias drives many here to think with prejudice against some players, and not so much against some other players(because some of them might be our favorites). And this question is not just intented to you TJB.

How is anything your saying here relevant? You say you're curious about people's biases but your the one making everything about nationality.

What your line of posting looks like, to me, is this:
- People are pointing out a statistical hole in record of a player I like
- I don't like that
- I think they must be biased
- Here are other players from other countries that we're not talking about, look at them

 

[honestbharani]

Jadeja is a fantastic heel. Not a truly evil caricature like Warne but the kind of annoying prick that'd get under your skin if you played for/supported the other team. He's also the ultimate butt of jokes - > genuine star story in crickets recent history. Guy was a laughing stock before his test career took off.

A proper Chris Jericho, in other words.

 

[honestbharani]

No he doesn't. (33.68 vs NZ including over 60 when he plays here).

Are we saying NZ > Eng/Aus?

 

[h_hurricane]

How is anything your saying here relevant? You say you're curious about people's biases but your the one making everything about nationality.

What your line of posting looks like, to me, is this:
- People are pointing out a statistical hole in record of a player I like
- I don't like that
- I think they must be biased
- Here are other players from other countries that we're not talking about, look at them

Nah, my stand on this topic has been pretty clear.

1. I do not rate Ashwin or Jadeja as much as what their overall stats suggest. I am aware about the holes in their records as much as you do. Both pretty good cricketers neverthless.
2. I do not rate Lillee, Anderson, Botham as much as what their overall stats suggest. There are holes in their records, but a mere mention of them triggers many hence was asking here if it is due to a prejudice or unconscious bias.
3. Players like Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kapil, Imran, Akram, Waqar and Miandad have records a truer indicator of what these players are given that they have a more even distribution of matches across the globe, as compared to the players above. It is hardly my fault that some of them are Indians. Bringing nationality into every argument is something you are doing here, not me.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Are we saying NZ > Eng/Aus?

NZ are definitely better than England and have been for 4 or 5 years. We are currently better than South Africa. We are worse than Australia.

 

[TheJediBrah]

1. I do not rate Ashwin or Jadeja as much as what their overall stats suggest. I am aware about the holes in their records as much as you do. Both pretty good cricketers neverthless.

Of course

2. I do not rate Lillee, Anderson, Botham as much as what their overall stats suggest. There are holes in their records, but a mere mention of them triggers many hence was asking here if it is due to a prejudice or unconscious bias.

aka "Cevnoing", as Burgey calls it. And this thread tends to show the opposite. No one is being triggered by those other examples.

3. Players like Tendulkar, Gavaskar, Dravid, Kapil, Imran, Akram, Waqar and Miandad have records a truer indicator of what these players are given that they have a more even distribution of matches across the globe, as compared to the players above. It is hardly my fault that some of them are Indians. Bringing nationality into every argument is something you are doing here, not me.

I'm still missing how any of this was ever relevant. And the bolded is patently false. I may have pointed out where nationalism was being brought into the discussion but I definitely didn't initiate it myself.

Edit: And at the risk of being "that guy", you never answered me on the statistical hypothetical I put out. Do you still disagree that an extrapolation based on a small outlying sample (eg. 1 Test match) can be more misleading than an extrapolation based on a larger, "adjacent" sample (eg. first class stats, test stats in other countries)

 

[Line and Length]

If the topic of the ratio of home/away games played by players from different countries is an issue the question that needs to be asked is, "Why do some countries play more Tests at home than they do away?"

 

[TheJediBrah]

And yes ftr I realise the irony of whinging about creating "nationalistic conflict" in this thread, which was likely designed for just that purpose

If the topic of the ratio of home/away games played by players from different countries is an issue the question that needs to be asked is, "Why do some countries play more Tests at home than they do away?"

Not exactly rocket science. Supply and demand.

 

[h_hurricane]

Edit: And at the risk of being "that guy", you never answered me on the statistical hypothetical I put out. Do you still disagree that an extrapolation based on a small outlying sample (eg. 1 Test match) can be more misleading than an extrapolation based on a larger, "adjacent" sample (eg. first class stats, test stats in other countries)

How much larger adjacent sample do you have though ?

Jadeja averages 28 in Aus, 25 in SA, 42 in Eng, 60 in NZ, 25 in WI and 28 in SL. He has hardly played any first class matches outside tests away from India. The only thing I know is he has progressively improved as a bowler from how he performed in Eng and NZ in 2014 to how he performed in the recent past. What do I deduct from this ? Almost nothing.

I never said he would average 28 in Aus if he played 20 tests there for instance. Simply because I do not know.

What I do insist for sure is, it is unfair to dump a random average like 40 for him (in the virtual scenario of him playing 10-20 tests there) and downgrade him accordingly. This is exactly what you were doing.

 

[honestbharani]

No one is being triggered by those other examples.

 

[TheJediBrah]

How much larger adjacent sample do you have though ?

Dude. I've literally said half a dozen times forget the Jadeja example. You're not listening. You clearly don't consider the 28 average an outlier and that's fine, which makes it irrelevant to what I'm asking you. I get it, you think it's unfair to predict an average of 40, if anything I think it's generous. We've agreed to disagree, move on.

I'm talking purely theoretically and hypothetically. And I'm not trying to trick you. If you agree with me I'm not going to turn around and say "haha that means you wer wrong about Jadeja", because if you don't consider it an outlier than it is not relevant. My question was this:

Do you still disagree that an extrapolation based on a small outlying sample (eg. 1 Test match) can be more misleading than an extrapolation based on a larger, "adjacent" sample (eg. first class stats, test stats in other countries)

 

[h_hurricane]

Dude. I've literally said half a dozen times forget the Jadeja example. You're not listening. You clearly don't consider the 28 average an outlier and that's fine, which makes it irrelevant to what I'm asking you. I get it, you think it's unfair to predict an average of 40, if anything I think it's generous. We've agreed to disagree, move on.

I'm talking purely theoretically and hypothetically. And I'm not trying to trick you. If you agree with me I'm not going to turn around and say "haha that means you wer wrong about Jadeja", because if you don't consider it an outlier than it is not relevant. My question was this:

Do you still disagree that an extrapolation based on a small outlying sample (eg. 1 Test match) can be more misleading than an extrapolation based on a larger, "adjacent" sample (eg. first class stats, test stats in other countries) - Do not disagree

 

[TheJediBrah]

What I do insist for sure is, it is unfair to dump a random average like 40 for him (in the virtual scenario of him playing 10-20 tests there) and downgrade him accordingly. This is exactly what you were doing.

To answer this though, what else is there to do? As you say we don't have a lot of data, it's almost all guesswork. I don't see how it's "unfair" to dump a value like that on him when it's clearly being presented as a guess. Considering that a player like Ashwin with similar-ish home/away stats averages 50 in Aus I don't think it's unreasonable.

edit: Also even Nathan Lyon, who is much more suited to bowling in Australia and who's entire game is based around Australian conditions, still averages 32 in the country.

 

[_00_deathscar]

edit: Also even Nathan Lyon, who is much more suited to bowling in Australia and who's entire game is based around Australian conditions, still averages 32 in the country.

That’s Cos he’s **** though - unlike Jadeja

 

[Migara]

If Jadeja played as much cricket in Australia as Warne did he'd have a bowling average of 40

If Lillee played as much cricket as Marshall or Hadlee in sub continent, he'd have a bowling average of 40 too.

 

[Migara]

tbf if Warne played as much cricket in India as Jadeja did he'd have a bowling average of 40 too

Ouch!

 

[Migara]

This is literally what Warne did everywhere save India. Jadeja averages 35 away with the ball, Warne averaged 25, which includes his spud efforts in India.

If Jadeja had THAT English line ups that Warne had to feast on, he's average much better than 35.