Would Kevin Pietersen Have Made the SA Team?

[ma1978]

Bar debate last night which I was having with some friends.

Would KP have made the mid to late 2000s SA team? Leave quotas out this.

I am a huge KP fan but objectively he was worse than Kallis, De Villiers and Amla. And he wasnt an opener. And Gibbs was so entrenched. Plus KP clearly had a better career than Prince but there were stretches it wasnt that obvious.

My conclusion is that he would have been fighting for his spot aa the number 6.

 

[vcs]

He would have probably made their team, but batted at 5. He'd likely have cemented his spot during 2005-2008 where he was better than Amla and AB and then it would have been tough for them to displace him.

They certainly didn't miss him though, that SA batting lineup in its prime was fearsome in all conditions.

 

[Burgey]

He’d have ended up captaining it. Would have walked in across all formats

 

[GIMH]

There's not a team he wouldn't have got into at his best.

 

[Bijed]

Yeah, I think I'm with vcs on this one - assuming KP was putting up domestic numbers at the right time, he'd have probably got a shot over one of those who turned out very good but didn't start so well, delaying their careers I guess. There were others who KP was better than overall, but weren't in a position to be dropped when KP was looking to break into the team.

I can't remember actually - were AB/Amla dropped after their shaky starts or did they just move down the order and were persisted with until they came good?

 

[honestbharani]

AB debuted before KP IIRC. Amla would have been the one to suffer, in all likelihood. AB was around even when Jonty was active, lol.

 

[srbhkshk]

AB did debut before KP but it wasn't a big gap, Dec 2004 to Jul 2005 and KP debuted in ODIs before AB, Amla's test debut was at a similar time, I think they were talented enough that all three would have made it in a couple of years, although it might have been a bit tumultuous at the start.

 

[Jack1]

Yes, in all formats.

 

[StephenZA]

KP the batsmen from 2004 onward would have been selected into any side in the world...

... would KP the batsmen have existed in 2004 if he had not left SA to go to England is another question. I think the move to England gave him the drive to succeed, and focus on batting which he would not necessarily have done in SA. If he had stayed in SA likely he would have been asked to focus as much on his bowling as his batting, in an allrounder role, and probably not become anywhere near as good. When playing for Natal he did not perform very well with either the bat or ball. Was clearly talented but was not a focus of future SA team at the time, as there was clearly other batting talent around. I think he needed that extra 4 years to grow in England.

 

[Howe_zat]

AB did debut before KP but it wasn't a big gap, Dec 2004 to Jul 2005 and KP debuted in ODIs before AB, Amla's test debut was at a similar time, I think they were talented enough that all three would have made it in a couple of years, although it might have been a bit tumultuous at the start.

AB was starting his career around that time as an opener. Amla debuted in the 2004-5 series vs England and was pretty poor iirc - and the same is true of Dale Steyn.

So yeah it's easy to look back now and say 'De Villers was better than KP, so KP wouldn't have played' but that's just a really lazy statement made by assuming that a cricketer is like a solid block of output from their debut to finish, and doesn't come close to answering the question.

If KP had made his debut(s) around the time he did for England, I think he would have either delayed Amla's career until about 2009 or so or we would have seen a lot more of AB the opener. There's also a good chance that (assuming he had the same mid-career slump that he had playing for England) he would have been dropped for good in 2010.

That said, if he had stayed in SA he probably would have debuted for them earlier anyway because he wouldn't have had to complete a residence period. So his debut probably would have come in one day cricket after the 2003 world cup. People like Jacques Rudolph and Zander de Bruyn were all getting a few white ball games for South Africa in that period. From there he might have failed to impress as a 22 year old and had a completely different career.

 

[ma1978]

Ok next question - would Kallis, AB, Amla, Pietersen be the best middle order of all time in a team without Bradman?

There were some great middle orders in the 2000s

Competing at the time with Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly

Ponting, Clarke, Hussey, Katich

 

[srbhkshk]

All about the same level I think, Ganguly a bit of a weak link in the Indian one but not a major difference overall.

 

[Migara]

Most probably in one of those FC matches they would find KP can play Warne well, and he'll be immediately in the side.

 

[Migara]

Ok next question - would Kallis, AB, Amla, Pietersen be the best middle order of all time in a team without Bradman?

There were some great middle orders in the 2000s

Competing at the time with Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly

Ponting, Clarke, Hussey, Katich

And Sangakkara, Jayawardane and Samaraweera as well. All three 50+ averages.

 

[trundler]

Younis, Yousuf, Inzi not a bad shout either. All 3 averaged 50 for Pakistan.

 

[trundler]

Lots of Inflated averages there.

50 was the new 40, really.

 

[morgieb]

As long as he developed like he did, absolutely.

 

[Burgey]

Ok next question - would Kallis, AB, Amla, Pietersen be the best middle order of all time in a team without Bradman?

Wouldn’t have been the best middle order of that decade

 

[vcs]

All about the same level I think, Ganguly a bit of a weak link in the Indian one but not a major difference overall.

Ganguly was a pretty mediocre Test batsman for most of the '00s, though he had a bit of a renaissance before retiring.

 

[AndrewB]

WI had Worrell, Weekes, Walcott and Sobers for a while in the 50s, although as none of them were at their peak this was a much stronger side on paper than in practice.