The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

You forget to list having ridiculously high strike power whilst bowling back breaking spells, occupying one end essentially all day without any drop in input which would require insane fitness and skill.

For pace bowlers perhaps. But Warne used to bowl all day and he's hardly the paragon of fitness.

 

[morgieb]

Essentially spin bowling is for beta males.

 

[stephen]

I mean, he's admitted to not liking Indian players in general because of the BCCI or media hype or whatever, which is fair enough, but not sure what the deal is with Murali. Sri Lankan players are massive underdogs fighting against a corrupt board, lack of pay, lack of high profile series and so many disadvantages. Guess it's just a matter of disliking anyone who's considered as good or better than the Australian counterpart.

Actually I'm quite fond of most of the Sri Lankan players. I think Sangakkara in particular has a great sense of humour. Samaraweera seems like a great human all round from what I've read. Murali himself seems like a great bloke. A far better person than most in fact. I've gone on record as saying that the Sri Lankan ODI side was consistently great between 1996 and 2010ish.

But should all of that stop me from using the highest wicket taker of all time as an example of how to take a lot of wickets? And how is saying someone takes a lot of wickets a bad thing?

 

[harsh.ag]

They weren't but they also didn't play in every match. And nor were they in Lillee's class as a bowler (Thommo was for a while but not his whole career).

For the majority of Hadlee and Steyn's career they didn't have much up the other end. Morkel was feared but never that good (until the very end). Hadlee notoriously had rubbish bowlers up three other end.

As far as spinners go, Murali, Warne, Kumble, Herath, Ashwin, Shah, Grimmett and O'Reilly all took more wpm than Marshall. Other than one or two, most of those guys didn't have much in the way of support but had strong batting lineups.

This is one of the top 10 wrong things anyone who has followed cricket the past decade can say.

 

[stephen]

This is one of the top 10 wrong things anyone who has followed cricket the past decade can say.

Philander (40 tests) and Ntini (32 tests) both played some of their careers with Steyn. Philander did well averaging 21.5 during that time. Ntini on the other hand averaged over 30 while Steyn was in the side. As I said, Morkel wasn't great at all. He was feared for his physical menace but averaging around 29 during that time which is good but not exactly great.

Steyn's support wasn't great when Philander wasn't in the team, which was the majority of his career.

 

[harsh.ag]

Pollock, Rabada, Olivier, Abbott (the last 2 only for a bit) - there was never a time in Steyn's carrer SA didn't have a great pace attack.

 

[harsh.ag]

Philander (40 tests) and Ntini (32 tests) both played some of their careers with Steyn. Philander did well averaging 21.5 during that time. Ntini on the other hand averaged over 30 while Steyn was in the side. As I said, Morkel wasn't great at all. He was feared for his physical menace but averaging around 29 during that time which is good but not exactly great.

Steyn's support wasn't great when Philander wasn't in the team, which was the majority of his career.

This is mind boggling. Would you say McGrath didn't have great pace support because Gillespie only played 58 of his 124 tests together and Lee averaged 29?

 

[stephen]

Pollock, Rabada, Olivier, Abbott (the last 2 only for a bit) - there was never a time in Steyn's carrer SA didn't have a great pace attack.

9 tests, 12 tests, 5 tests and 4 tests respectively. Cumulatively they were the for less than a third of his career. There was a huge chunk of Steyn's career where he was their only decent bowler. Pollock was there right at the beginning and the other three at the end. The middle of Steyn's career was a dry period for South African bowling, which Steyn carried. Steyn, Morkel, Kallis + two other randoms was the formula for most of his career. At the very beginning and very end those randoms were good but not in the middle.

 

[stephen]

This is mind boggling. Would you say McGrath didn't have great pace support because Gillespie only played 58 of his 124 tests together and Lee averaged 29?

McGrath had Warne for most of his career. Ambrose had Walsh. Outside those guys most of their support were in the Morkel class or worse.

Furthermore, Gillespie played a higher proportion of McGrath's tests than Rabada played with Steyn. Lee was Morkel class. So McGrath played with one or two bowlers better than Morkel for most of his career.

 

[harsh.ag]

9 tests, 12 tests, 5 tests and 4 tests respectively. Cumulatively they were the for less than a third of his career. There was a huge chunk of Steyn's career where he was their only decent bowler. Pollock was there right at the beginning and the other three at the end. The middle of Steyn's career was a dry period for South African bowling, which Steyn carried. Steyn, Morkel, Kallis + two other randoms was the formula for most of his career. At the very beginning and very end those randoms were good but not in the middle.

Steyn played only 12 tests with just Morkel as good support. There was no "dry middle period" you refer to.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Essentially spin bowling is for beta males.

this is very true at all levels. Warne would be a rare exception. Harbhajan too.

 

[stephen]

Steyn played only 12 tests with just Morkel as good support. There was no "dry middle period" you refer to.

Nonsense. Ntini averaging 30+ was not great.

 

[harsh.ag]

Nonsense. Ntini averaging 30+ was not great.

Steyn, Ntini, Morkel is a very good attack. You can pretend otherwise if you want.

 

[stephen]

Steyn, Ntini, Morkel is a very good attack. You can pretend otherwise if you want.

Yeah it's a good attack, but only because of Steyn. The other two were support acts at best. Nowhere near the quality of Marshall's, Ambrose's, McGrath's or even Donald's support.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah it's a good attack, but only because of Steyn. The other two were support acts at best. Nowhere near the quality of Marshall's, Ambrose's, McGrath's or even Donald's support.

No one said it was. YOU stated that Steyn had a decent chunk of his career where he had only Morkel as good support. That is categorically false. Now stop moving the goalposts and try to make it out as if someone said anything else.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This whole being in a strong team and "support" thing is being way overblown anyway IMO. The logic and argument is obvious, but I have a hard time believing that it makes as much difference on a player's output or stats as people are making out. Do people really think that Hadlee would have much better stats if he played in a stronger team? Or Murali?

I think it would be mentally fatiguing more than anything. I could understand it knocking a few years of your career.

And agree that Steyn is a dumb example. He's generally had pretty good support and played in a very strong team.

 

[ankitj]

What you want for high wpm:

A good batting side
Terrible other bowlers on your side
To be a spinner so you can get through a lot of overs
To play in friendly conditions to your style of bowling

So basically to be Murali.

The one time Murali and Warne played in exact same conditions and against exact same quality of opposition and colleagues was during their County stints and Murali averaged about half of what Warne did (AMZ posted those stats recently). You are still going to go on the train that Murali got his wickets due to tailor made conditions and no support bowlers?

Seriously, the amount of salty posts about Murali from Warne fans here is at the level of "Tendulkar better than Bradman" elsewhere on internet. So poor.

 

[stephen]

No one said it was. YOU stated that Steyn had a decent chunk of his career where he had only Morkel as good support. That is categorically false. Now stop moving the goalposts and try to make it out as if someone said anything else.

Truth is neither Ntini nor Morkel were very good. Morkel was the better of the two but using those two as evidence that Steyn had to share wickets with good support bowlers is tenuous at best.

I'm not shifting the goal posts at all. Morkel and Ntini are nowhere near the class of Steyn. They're not huge wicket taking threats, particularly at the tail end of Ntini's career.

 

[harsh.ag]

You have systematically excluded Philander, Rabada, Pollock and every other great pacer Steyn played with and are arguing, wrongly, about the rest of 27 tests (15 played with Ntini-Morkel and 12 Morkel). By definition, your initial claim was incredibly wrong and that you have absolutely no desire to look honestly into what you write speaks to the cancerous blob your posting has become.

 

[stephen]

The one time Murali and Warne played in exact same conditions and against exact same quality of opposition and colleagues was during their County stints and Murali averaged about half of what Warne did (AMZ posted those stats recently). You are still going to go on the train that Murali got his wickets due to tailor made conditions and no support bowlers?

Seriously, the amount of salty posts about Murali from Warne fans here is at the level of "Tendulkar better than Bradman" elsewhere on internet. So poor.

Warne had a pretty good wpm as well.

Another example is Ashwin - majority of tests at home in favourable conditions, a spinner, not too much support for most of his career.

Murali is simply the best example but history shows that spinners particularly those who get a lot of tests in favourable conditions and don't have much competition for wickets from the other end find it easiest to rack up high wpm values. Certainly they find it easier than quicks in strong attacks (except Marshall and Garner but those two are freaks).