Is Dhoni greatest OdI cricketer off all-time

[Victor Ian]

Why you have Symonds, and probably Ponting, and others like them.

You are picking an all time great team. You are picking this imagining that in some parallel universe, this thing actually happens. AND you get to watch it. So you are anticipating watching the greatest game you ever watched. You players are not going to have off days. They are going to display all the best of what you have picked them for.

So, in the theatrics of this brilliant game, there are moments where you see something in the field that surpasses all regular games. Symonds is in, because your game needs to have one of his chest dives onto the turf, where he slides like a sea plane coming in while his right arm sweeps forward to grab that ball before he is up and has whipped the ball in over the stumps to run out Steve Waugh's partner in the opposing team. Or you need to see Ponting stop the unstoppable ball and throw down the stumps from side on to run out Steve Waugh's next partner.

Runs stopped are underrated.

 

[honestbharani]

Why you have Symonds, and probably Ponting, and others like them.

You are picking an all time great team. You are picking this imagining that in some parallel universe, this thing actually happens. AND you get to watch it. So you are anticipating watching the greatest game you ever watched. You players are not going to have off days. They are going to display all the best of what you have picked them for.

So, in the theatrics of this brilliant game, there are moments where you see something in the field that surpasses all regular games. Symonds is in, because your game needs to have one of his chest dives onto the turf, where he slides like a sea plane coming in while his right arm sweeps forward to grab that ball before he is up and has whipped the ball in over the stumps to run out Steve Waugh's partner in the opposing team. Or you need to see Ponting stop the unstoppable ball and throw down the stumps from side on to run out Steve Waugh's next partner.

Runs stopped are underrated.

But that simply means you pick Jonty as the 12th man. And get Wasim and Ambrose/McGrath to hobble off after their spells...

 

[TheJediBrah]

Your argument for this makes no sense. Everyone knows that a batting average is total career runs/dismissals. People aren't stupid. So of course it's true that not outs don't "boost averages" in a true mathematical/statistical sense.

It's just that, in shorter forms especially, runs per innings batted is a far more valuable stat than batting averages. This is the entire reason I believe Bevan is seriously overrated.

When we're comparing Dhoni's/Gilchrist's value to their side, runs per innings batted makes far more sense than batting average.

So, you can keep your condescension.

Yeah, nah, not going through all this again. Pretty sure there was a thread dedicated to it.

 

[stephen]

Atleast trundler and hb think Symonds doesn't belong in an ATG xi because of actual cricket reasons. Not because they dislike Cricket Australia or something. That ring a bell?

National biases are present for everyone and ots hardly some dreadful accusation to throw around but you should be literally the very last person on this forum doing it. Have some self awareness.

Nah trundler and hb have simply been throwing around unsupported statements that I quoted earlier.

Nationalistic biases was probably the wrong term. In hb's case it's an anti- Australian thing that's been going on for ages. Trundler was simply trolling and baiting.

 

[honestbharani]

@Red Hill you and I have a fundamental difference in how we look at ODI stats and therefore we will never agree on Gilly, Bevan, Kapil, MSD or Symonds. I understand your perspective but I just happen to think its flawed and I think you feel the same with my points. We will just be going around in circles so I am just gonna agree to disagree.

Please don't assume I belittle your cricket knowledge or your ability to pick a side without bias etc. I do not assume for one moment that it is your Aussie bias speaking when you support Gilly or Symonds (unlike @stephen for example) and I hope you realize it is the same with me when I stick up for MSD.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Funny how dismissals per innings is not brought up when comparing keepers and yet runs per innings is.

Not commenting on the rest of your post, but this makes no sense. Dismissals per innings is a garbage stat when rating a keeper and always will be.

In hb's case it's an anti- Australian thing that's been going on for ages. Trundler was simply trolling and baiting.

Now that you've figured this out hopefully we can move on

 

[honestbharani]

Dismissals per innings is a garbage stat when rating a keeper and always will be.

My point is it is as valuable as RPI. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Your argument for this makes no sense. Everyone knows that a batting average is total career runs/dismissals. People aren't stupid. So of course it's true that not outs don't "boost averages" in a true mathematical/statistical sense.

It's just that, in shorter forms especially, runs per innings batted is a far more valuable stat than batting averages. This is the entire reason I believe Bevan is seriously overrated.

When we're comparing Dhoni's/Gilchrist's value to their side, runs per innings batted makes far more sense than batting average.

So, you can keep your condescension.

Reasonable points imo. Im not as firmly in the anti not out bandwagon as you but Ive been slowly getting there over the last few years having watched Dhoni maintain a 45+ average over the last few years of his career despite contributing little to the team as a batsman.

 

[Red]

And Dhoni was the better keeper as he could create opportunities Gilly could not even dream of. Funny how dismissals per innings is not brought up when comparing keepers and yet runs per innings is.

Just to clarify, do you mean the keeping ODI dismissals per innings stat that is 1.69 for Gilchrist and 1.49 for Dhoni?

 

[honestbharani]

1.69 for Gilchrist and 1.49 for Dhoni?

you are right.. I miscalculated. But what I mentioned to TJB still stands... They are both meaningless stats.

 

[harsh.ag]

RedHill's way of looking at Gilly vs Dhoni is all fine except for the RPI thing. Can't compare because of the differences in the number of balls faced.

And for ODI keeping, there is a case for their keeping being equal or for Dhoni's being better.

Not gonna argue that Gilly was a better batsman overall and with better technique but that doesn't seem to have mattered in ODIs for a while now. Not sure what to do with that but it seems to be true.

 

[Victor Ian]

But that simply means you pick Jonty as the 12th man. And get Wasim and Ambrose/McGrath to hobble off after their spells...

Yeah. I just might.

 

[OverratedSanity]

RedHill's way of looking at Gilly vs Dhoni is all fine except for the RPI thing. Can't compare because of the differences in the number of balls faced.

Dhoni faced far more balls than Gilchrist though. RPI cannot be brushed off that easily, if you score more runs per innings you're contributing more to the team total, its a fairly simple equation. Its not the only thing that should be looked at but it shows that the gap between how how good they were is definitely not as big as the difference in average suggests.

 

[TheJediBrah]

My point is it is as valuable as RPI. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

RPI can actually have some use though. It's just not as good as using average.

 

[harsh.ag]

Dhoni faced far more balls than Gilchrist though. RPI cannot be brushed off that easily, if you score more runs per innings you're contributing more to the team total, its a fairly simple equation.

Yes but batting down the order gives you fewer chances of scoring big hundreds. So, the average and RPI thing can be a washout out for elite batsmen because essentially you're trading off centuries for not outs.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Just to clarify, do you mean the keeping ODI dismissals per innings stat that is 1.69 for Gilchrist and 1.49 for Dhoni?

Of course Gilchrist is going to be higher. You get fed more catches playing with Australian bowlers/conditions than Indian.

Dhoni faced far more balls than Gilchrist though. RPI cannot be brushed off that easily, if you score more runs per innings you're contributing more to the team total, its a fairly simple equation. Its not the only thing that should be looked at but it shows that the gap between how how good they were is definitely not as big as the difference in average suggests.

Those are 2 completely different things. You want to know how good they are? Use average.

 

[stephen]

Not really... If you wanna do apples to apples why not compare their averages and RPI when batting in top 3? You are using test batting stats to imply one is better than the other in ODIs is just laughable logic, coz then Rahane > Symonds as an ODI batsman. And opening was the EASIEST spot to bat in ODIs throughout Gilly's career, while MSD's was the toughest. And RPI does not mean **** in this comparison as they both do not have the same number of balls left in the innings when they start and therefore do not have the opportunity to bat as long.

Gilly's ODI record is middling at best and the SR does not make up for his lack of runs. And Dhoni was the better keeper as he could create opportunities Gilly could not even dream of. Funny how dismissals per innings is not brought up when comparing keepers and yet runs per innings is.

I'm going to fact check this because I don't believe opening was the easiest position to bat during Gilchrist's career.

Between 1 Jan 1999 and 31 Dec 2008: Openers averaged 32 @74.
3 averaged 32 @71.
4 averaged 35 @74.
5 averaged 32 @76.
6 averaged 28 @76.

So batting 4 was easiest during Gilchrist's time. Batting 1-5 (excluding 4) was pretty even, more even than I would have intuitively thought.

The majority of Dhoni's career (1 Jan 2005 - 31 Dec 2018 for simplicity's sake ).

Openers: 34@81
3: 36@78
4: 36 @78
5: 34 @81
6: 29 @83

So while your statement about Gilchrist was untrue, your statement about Dhoni had merit since Dhoni spent the majority of his career batting 6.

Although your rating of their respective keeping abilities was completely untrue. Dhoni was brilliant with the gloves but so was Gilchrist. The former was perhaps better to the spinners while the latter was better to the quicks owing to his extra height giving him extra reach.

 

[honestbharani]

RPI can actually have some use though. It's just not as good as using average.

Unless you have a BPI or something to contextualize it, I don't think it is useful at all. Batting average on its own has its limitations too but especially in LO formats, RPI is such a silly stat to look at.

 

[honestbharani]

Dhoni faced far more balls than Gilchrist though.

Per innings? And even if so, how does that on its own have any merit in this discussion?

 

[honestbharani]

I'm going to fact check this because I don't believe opening was the easiest position to bat during Gilchrist's career.

Between 1 Jan 1999 and 31 Dec 2008: Openers averaged 32 @74.
3 averaged 32 @71.
4 averaged 35 @74.
5 averaged 32 @76.
6 averaged 28 @76.

So batting 4 was easiest during Gilchrist's time. Batting 1-5 (excluding 4) was pretty even, more even than I would have intuitively thought.

The majority of Dhoni's career (1 Jan 2005 - 31 Dec 2018 for simplicity's sake ).

Openers: 34@81
3: 36@78
4: 36 @78
5: 34 @81
6: 29 @83

So while your statement about Gilchrist was untrue, your statement about Dhoni had merit since Dhoni spent the majority of his career batting 6.

Although your rating of their respective keeping abilities was completely untrue. Dhoni was brilliant with the gloves but so was Gilchrist. The former was perhaps better to the spinners while the latter was better to the quicks owing to his extra height giving him extra reach.

Like I said, I think MSD created chances off his own keeping skills far more than Gilly or any other keeper ever did. There are no stats for that but there are YouTube videos I can link you to. It is just something you need to have seen to understand and I pretty much watched both of them throughout their careers coz I loved folowing that ATG Aussie side, so to me Dhoni is the better keeper. He is also the better ODI batsman and one of the ATG captains of this format.

@Red Hill - And I already stated why we have completely opposing PoVs on this discussion, I don't think you and I look at ODI batting the same way. So I don't think there is ever going to be much agreement between us on any ODI batting comparison.

In a nutshell, I think Bevan and Hussey are ATG ODI batsmen and far more relevant to an ATG side discussion than Gilly and Symonds.

EDIT: Just realized I was responding to @stephen s post but talking to @Red Hill