An Australian XI That Never played Tests

[NotMcKenzie]

And yes, it does actually. As soon as throwing allegations were pressed against Gilbert has was tested extensively. As for Ironmonger, nothing.

That's because there was nothing suspicious about Ironmonger's action to test. Also, 'tested' is not the correct word with regard to Gilbert, either. People took photos of him, and at least one paper arranged a series of films (which almost certainly don't survive, more's the pity); Ron Halcombe also underwent this sort of informal arrangement. Certainly anything Gilbert had to do was nothing like what Harold Rhodes went through.

 

[jimmy101]

there was very possibly little reason to suspect Ironmonger relative to Gilbert

How do you know? It's very easy for me to put the shoe on the other foot and say that you're the one making assumptions.

 

[jimmy101]

That's because there was nothing suspicious about Ironmonger's action to test. Also, 'tested' is not the correct word with regard to Gilbert, either. People took photos of him, and at least one paper arranged a series of films (which almost certainly don't survive, more's the pity); Ron Halcombe also underwent this sort of informal arrangement. Certainly anything Gilbert had to do was nothing like what Harold Rhodes went through.

There are a fair few conventional reports that indicate there were a lot of questions surrounding his action. In fact, Bill Woodfull was told by the ACB that he could choose anyone he liked to take with him to England, apart from Ironmonger due to the throwing allegations, as the Australian body at the time was unwilling to upset the MCC ahead of the tour.

 

[TheJediBrah]

How do you know? It's very easy for me to put the shoe on the other foot and say that you're the one making assumptions.

We don't "know" for sure but from all accounts it's very likely that Gilbert had a much more suspicious action. I mean just have a look at the last few posts here from a few guys who know more than both of us.

Even ignoring that, surely you can see the issue with you assuming everything is because of racism without any real grounds to assume that?

I'd think it is a much more sensible viewpoint to have some benefit of the doubt rather than jump to "the only reason they were treated differently was because of their race!!!"

 

[the big bambino]

Woodfull was not a selector for the 1930 tour. The reason for Dainty's non selection is unknown.

 

[Starfighter]

We don't "know" for sure but from all accounts it's very likely that Gilbert had a much more suspicious action. I mean just have a look at the last few posts here from a few guys who know more than both of us.

Even ignoring that, surely you can see the issue with you assuming everything is because of racism without any real grounds to assume that?

It's working backwards and assuming that it must be a racist conspiracy first and anything else second. Could've gone to my university.

 

[jimmy101]

Even ignoring that, surely you can see the issue with you assuming everything is because of racism without any real grounds to assume that?

Did you miss my earlier post outlining all of the racial troubles plaguing Australian sport at the time? What I'm saying isn't coming out of nowhere.

 

[jimmy101]

Woodfull was not a selector for the 1930 tour. The reason for Dainty's non selection is unknown.

I know, as I posted earlier it was the ACB which mandated who he could & could select. Woodfull was obviously allowed to nominate his preferences, but the ACB had the final say. The ACB said no to Ironmonger on the grounds of staying on good terms with the almighty MCC.

 

[jimmy101]

It's working backwards and assuming that it must be a racist conspiracy first and anything else second. Could've gone to my university.

Hardly a conspiracy considering the overt racism of the day. Keep in mind that Indigenous people weren't even allowed to vote in Australian elections until 1962.

 

[the big bambino]

I know, as I posted earlier it was the ACB which mandated who he could & could select. Woodfull was obviously allowed to nominate his preferences, but the ACB had the final say. The ACB said no to Ironmonger on the grounds of staying on good terms with the almighty MCC.

If they had those discussions, and I haven't heard about them, it would have been with the then captain Ryder who was on the panel. Only after Ryder was outvoted for a place by his two co selectors did Woodfull become captain. Woodfull was never in a position to nominate any of his preferences before the squad was announced.

 

[Line and Length]

I've really enjoyed the many contributions to this thread, particularly the more recent ones with regard to Eddie Gilbert. Thanks to all concerned. With regard to the initial thread, I was interested to read of the possible alternatives to the side I named. I'll preface my comments that my selections were and are based almost purely on statistical evidence.
Starting with the specialist bowlers, I didn't consider Mark Harrity (216 w @ 29.3) and Wayne Prior (140 @ 33.0) due to their averages. Mark Cameron only took 45 first class wickets which I considered insufficient for inclusion. However, there could be no denying the credentials of Matthew Innes (281 @ 25.7)
My initial side was obviously missing an all-rounder and both Ashley Noffke (3,508 r @ 26.8; 374 w @ 28.6) and Damien Wright (3,824 @ 23.5; 406 @ 28.7) would have strengthened an obvious tail. I had forgotten about Bill Alley, probably because he played most of his cricket in England, but his career stats are impressive (19,612 @ 31.9 including 31 centuries and 768 w @ 22.6). My interest was piqued at the mention of Cec Pepper who was regarded at the time as the next best Australian all-rounder behind Keith Miller. However, his figures (1,927 @ 29.6; 171 w @ 29.3) certainly wouldn't place him above Alley.
All the bowlers named were either fast or medium fast and there were no alternative spin options put forward to replace Hopurne.
When we look at specialist batsmen only Ryan Campbell (6.009 @ 36.4) was put forward.
When it came to the choice of wicket-keeper, Berry's batting came into question. Wade Seccombe had solid credentials but his batting average (24.5) was only marginally better than Berry's. On the other hand, Chris Hartley (6,138 @ 34.5) would certainly strengthen the lower order.

Having considered all your contributions, here is my revised Best Australian XI players who never played Tests.

M.Di Venuto 24,518 FC runs @ 46.4
J.Cox 18,614 @ 42.7
J.Siddons 11,587 @ 44.9
D.Hussey 14,280 @ 50.5
S.Trimble 10,282 @ 41.8
B.Alley 19,612 @ 31.9 & 768 w @ 22.6
C.Hartley 562 dismissals & 6,138 @ 34.5
A.Knoffke 3,508 @ 26.7 & 374 w @ 28.6
M.Innes 281 w @ 25.7
E.Gilbert 87w @ 28.9
D.Hourne 164 w @ 28.7

12th man M.Klinger 11,320 @ 39.3

 

[jimmy101]

If they had those discussions, and I haven't heard about them, it would have been with the then captain Ryder who was on the panel. Only after Ryder was outvoted for a place by his two co selectors did Woodfull become captain. Woodfull was never in a position to nominate any of his preferences before the squad was announced.

The tour in question was the 1930 tour (post-Ryder). As Ken Piesse wrote "Australia’s captain Bill Woodfull wanted him to reinforce his 1930 Ashes party but the conservative nature of officialdom meant old Bert was never given the call."

 

[jimmy101]

M.Di Venuto 24,518 FC runs @ 46.4
J.Cox 18,614 @ 42.7
J.Siddons 11,587 @ 44.9
D.Hussey 14,280 @ 50.5
S.Trimble 10,282 @ 41.8
B.Alley 19,612 @ 31.9 & 768 w @ 22.6
C.Hartley 562 dismissals & 6,138 @ 34.5
A.Knoffke 3,508 @ 26.7 & 374 w @ 28.6
M.Innes 281 w @ 25.7
E.Gilbert 87w @ 28.9
D.Hourne 164 w @ 28.7

12th man M.Klinger 11,320 @ 39.3

Now that's a strong top order!

 

[Line and Length]

Note: I haven't "chucked" Gilbert out of my side!

 

[the big bambino]

The tour in question was the 1930 tour (post-Ryder). As Ken Piesse wrote "Australia’s captain Bill Woodfull wanted him to reinforce his 1930 Ashes party but the conservative nature of officialdom meant old Bert was never given the call."

That can't be. The selectors Dolling, Jones and Ryder were given the job in 1929 for the sole purpose of picking the 1930 team. Ryder was the captain right up to the announcement of the squad. When he was outvoted the position only then fell to Woodfull. So it was impossible for Woodfull to have any opinion on the side's composition before it was selected. I haven't heard of any subsequent lobbying by Woodfull but even if he did he would have been told the squad is picked and we can only budget for the 15 or so selected. In any case reasons for Ironmonger's non selection were never stated. It could be said that Ron Oxenham was just as unlucky and he was a more versatile cricketer than Ironmonger. If either toured Australia's victory would have been even more conclusive. Imo.

 

[morgieb]

Ryan Campbell was a keeper, not a specialist bat.

 

[jimmy101]

That can't be. The selectors Dolling, Jones and Ryder were given the job in 1929 for the sole purpose of picking the 1930 team. Ryder was the captain right up to the announcement of the squad. When he was outvoted the position only then fell to Woodfull. So it was impossible for Woodfull to have any opinion on the side's composition before it was selected. I haven't heard of any subsequent lobbying by Woodfull but even if he did he would have been told the squad is picked and we can only budget for the 15 or so selected. In any case reasons for Ironmonger's non selection were never stated. It could be said that Ron Oxenham was just as unlucky and he was a more versatile cricketer than Ironmonger. If either toured Australia's victory would have been even more conclusive. Imo.

Ryder was Australian captain & selector up until the 1929/30 season. I don't think he was outvoted & then the ACB announced the 1930 Ashes squad the very next day. Plenty of time passed between the two events it would seem. The quote I posted is an except from Ironmonger's biography.

 

[the big bambino]

Ryder was Australian captain & selector up until the 1929/30 season. I don't think he was outvoted & then the ACB announced the 1930 Ashes squad the very next day. Plenty of time passed between the two events it would seem. The quote I posted is an except from Ironmonger's biography.

It can't be right. Ryder was on the panel because he was the current captain. But he failed to make the squad so one of his last duties would have been to pick the squad's captain. I know its the 1930s but I'm sure technology was sufficiently advanced to get the names out to press the next day or shortly afterwards. Besides the squad was selected before Woodfull knew he was in the side, let alone captain. So I can't see how he could have done any lobbying beforehand or to believe he had such influence after just being appointed to lobby for anyone afterwards.

 

[stephen]

On Hartley - he was basically forced out because he was never given a national cap. Peirson was emerging and was in fact the first choice t20 keeper at the time. Harley was 33 and never looked like being given a game, despite having been the best keeper in the country for years and as good as anyone else with the bat.

Nobody was to know that Nevill would do so poorly at test level that he'd be dropped and that Wade would be dropped again before selectors decided to pick Paine because "He was the best keeper".

One more season would possibly have gotten Hartley a few caps and who knows, he could have been in Paine's spot right now.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ryan Campbell was a keeper, not a specialist bat.

actually he played a lot of his state cricket for WA as a specialist bat, often as opener

Did you miss my earlier post outlining all of the racial troubles plaguing Australian sport at the time? What I'm saying isn't coming out of nowhere.

Seems like you really to want it to be racism, more than anything else and I don't get why. It may not be coming completely out of nowhere but it is still a big stretch.

On Hartley - he was basically forced out because he was never given a national cap. Peirson was emerging and was in fact the first choice t20 keeper at the time. Harley was 33 and never looked like being given a game, despite having been the best keeper in the country for years and as good as anyone else with the bat.

Nobody was to know that Nevill would do so poorly at test level that he'd be dropped and that Wade would be dropped again before selectors decided to pick Paine because "He was the best keeper".

One more season would possibly have gotten Hartley a few caps and who knows, he could have been in Paine's spot right now.

He was so good with the bat in his last season. I may be remembering wrong but I think he was averaging 80-odd for most of the year.