Bigger Playa: Miller vs Botham

[Red]

Botham was as good a pure, orthodox bat as you'll see, then he could absolutely hit when necessary.

It's very similar to Gilly, it all comes from a really solid foundation of orthodoxy, combined with an amazing eye and very fast hands.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The century at Old Trafford in the 81 series was a better innings, possibly his best Test century.

 

[Red]

The century at Old Trafford in the 81 series was a better innings, possibly his best Test century.

Good attacks he was facing too. Lillee, Alderman and Lawson, all of whom were far better than the average visiting bowler in England.

 

[bagapath]

Between 1977 and 1981 when Lillee Roberts and Holding were the best fast bowlers in the world, Botham was almost better than them. When Imran Hadlee and Marshall became the best in business from 1982. - 87, he started fading away. When it was the turn of Akram, Ambrose and Waqar to dominate with the new ball, from 1988 to 92, Beefy was a trundler.

I am still thinking about his comparison with Miller

 

[Line and Length]

Anyone who watches Red Hill's clip would never call Botham overrated. Classic cricket shots and power hitting at its best. Note how still Botham's head is when playing these shots. An object lesson!

 

[h_hurricane]

Even using statsguru badly, you've got a guy who was more or less the equivalent statistically to Broad and Anderson in terms of bowling,

Agree with this

with the added addition of having an aura around his batting something like Gilly.

Gilchrist had this aura in his batting for his whole career. Botham had for the first half. They are not in the same planet as batsmen. Beefy was the best batsman of the great 80s allrounders though.

The guy was a phenomenal cricketer

Again agreed.

just a shame he wasn't more disciplined in terms of fitness at the end of his career.

More like half his career in terms of timeframe, the bolded part not given enough emphasis by many.

 

[h_hurricane]

I believe many are missing the point that you can be an ATG and still be over-rated.

In David Gower's list of 50 greatest cricketers, he puts Imran at 11, Botham at 12, Hadlee at 20 and Kapil at 48. That is terrible under rating of Hadlee and Kapil as cricketers and genuine over rating of his pal.

Beefy isn't the only over rated cricketer in history though.

 

[Tom Flint]

Not sure if England First was sarcastic in his post, but have to agree that Ian Botham is one of the most over rated cricketers of all time. Most elite all rounders maintain peak fitness for well over a decade, some close to 2 decades like Sobers and Kallis but in Botham's case it was all over in a dream period lasting a little over half a decade. Even during his peak, a lot of his best performances came against Packer inflicted weak teams and he was notoriously poor against WI.

The bloke was a match winner and an ATG but just does not belong to the top tier all rounders like Sobers, Kallis, Imran and Miller.

Dream period last 5 years lol. Hardly a purple patch is it

 

[h_hurricane]

Dream period last 5 years lol. Hardly a purple patch is it

Well you could call it something else, fairly long duration and not just a purple patch I agree

 

[Tom Flint]

Exactly

 

[Tom Flint]

I can't comment on miller, but Botham was obviously in the top tier of talented players who may have missed out on an even better career had he not lived such a lifestyle, although somehow I doubt he regrets a things.

 

[h_hurricane]

That's not really true; in Australia in 1978-9 he was consistent but didn't do anything remarkable - no hundreds or 5-fors. His batting and bowling averages were both considerably better against the full Aussie team in 1979-80.

Yep, you are certainly right here. Pakistan missing Imran in 1978 away series (the one which Botham dominated) and Australia not having Chappell in the 1981 epic ashes gave me the impression that they were Packer inflicted, though the reasons were different.

 

[Engle]

Botham broke free the shackles of English cricket and shook them off their stupor. All this business of line, length, military-style discipline and dreariness were replaced with flair and flamboyance.

 

[honestbharani]

And then you went back to Ealham and Co. to fill his void.


Sorry, could not resist. He was a genuine ATG, as is Miller. And having not seen them play, I really don't think I can compare them in any fair manner.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

I believe many are missing the point that you can be an ATG and still be over-rated.

In David Gower's list of 50 greatest cricketers, he puts Imran at 11, Botham at 12, Hadlee at 20 and Kapil at 48. That is terrible under rating of Hadlee and Kapil as cricketers and genuine over rating of his pal.

Beefy isn't the only over rated cricketer in history though.

Hadlee at 20 is so weird

 

[Line and Length]

Not many players have a Test match virtually named after them, yet the '81 Test at Headingly is frequently referred to as "Botham's Test" - with good reason. A 50, a 6 wicket haul and then 149 not out. Bob Willis's 8 wickets then simply became the icing on the cake of an ATG performance by an ATG all-rounder.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I believe many are missing the point that you can be an ATG and still be over-rated.

In David Gower's list of 50 greatest cricketers, he puts Imran at 11, Botham at 12, Hadlee at 20 and Kapil at 48. That is terrible under rating of Hadlee and Kapil as cricketers and genuine over rating of his pal.

Beefy isn't the only over rated cricketer in history though.

Not surprising to rate your teammate higher than they deserve in that sort of exercise

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

So good to watch Miller either bowling or batting

 

[TheJediBrah]

**** can you imagine if Miller played now the media would be all over him

absolute stud

 

[bagapath]

purelyy as a bowler botham has his nose ahead of miller. heaps of five wicket hauls and good enough to become the highest wicket taker in the world. even if you restrict his career to the same 55 tests miller played - which I don't intend to do, he still took more wickets per tests and bowled out opposition more frequently than 90% of the bowlers in history. Miller never reached those heights with the ball. averaged about 3 wickets per test. their batting abilities were on par, so was their catching and fielding.

I would go for Botham. he definitely has his nose ahead.