South Africa team selection

[SeamUp]

Some of Boucher's thoughts on where we are in the formats as a team and some players individually : https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...r-spots-grabs-south-africa-prepare-india-odis

 

[StephenZA]

Some of Boucher's thoughts on where we are in the formats as a team and some players individually : https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...r-spots-grabs-south-africa-prepare-india-odis

South Africa have a significant winter break, with no cricket scheduled until a trip to Sri Lanka in May and no Test before the Caribbean in July and will spend some of their time off trying to sharpen their skills at specialised training camps.

SA are going to SL in May??

 

[SeamUp]

SA are going to SL in May??

Yeah. Put it on the previous page. Heard it or read it somewhere.

Was looking at our future tour schedule. There seems to be loads of just ODI tours because of the ODI championship now.

Tour to India

ODIs
Mar 12 in Dharamsala
Mar 15 in Lucknow
Mar 18 IN Kolkata , Eden Gardens


Tour to Sri Lanka

May/June : 3 ODI's and 3 T20's

Tour to West Indies

FC/Test
July 15- July 18 : 4-day warm-up (Trinidad)
July 23-July 27 : First Test (Trinidad)
Jul 31-4 Aug : Second Test (St Lucia)

T20s
8 & 9 Aug : Both Florida
12, 15, 16 Aug : All Jamaica

T20 World Cup

Oct 24 v India (Perth)
Oct 30 v England (SCG)
Nov 1 v Afghanistan (Adelaide)
Nov 5 v TBC (Adelaide)
Nov 8 v TBC (SCG)

 

[MrPrez]

Some of Boucher's thoughts on where we are in the formats as a team and some players individually : https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/...r-spots-grabs-south-africa-prepare-india-odis

Am I forgetting some standout performance recently in ODIs for Bavuma that has Boucher saying he's secured it?

I know he was good in the T20s but Malan just did great stuff vs Aus so to say Bavuma has secured the spot is a bit weird...

Another question to bring up again - with Klaasen (and Verreyne) putting up their hands, is there any validity yet in taking the gloves off Quinny so he can focus on being our premier batsman?

 

[Dendarii]

Am I forgetting some standout performance recently in ODIs for Bavuma that has Boucher saying he's secured it?

I know he was good in the T20s but Malan just did great stuff vs Aus so to say Bavuma has secured the spot is a bit weird...

Especially since he's been batting at 3 in ODIs all season...

Another question to bring up again - with Klaasen (and Verreyne) putting up their hands, is there any validity yet in taking the gloves off Quinny so he can focus on being our premier batsman?

My response to that has always been to ask who the best keeper is. If it's not De Kock then there's obviously a strong case to be made for giving the gloves to someone else. If it is De Kock then you have to weigh up the potential gains from him focusing more on his batting against the potential negatives of having someone not as good behind the stumps.

 

[MrPrez]

Especially since he's been batting at 3 in ODIs all season...



My response to that has always been to ask who the best keeper is. If it's not De Kock then there's obviously a strong case to be made for giving the gloves to someone else. If it is De Kock then you have to weigh up the potential gains from him focusing more on his batting against the potential negatives of having someone not as good behind the stumps.

I think de Kock the batsman has 50-Test-average potential. So far he's averaged around 40. If he can get that level of improvement by dropping the gloves and being a 4 or something, I think any payoff with the gloves (I think it would be minor, ftr) is worth it.

I'm biased here though as I've been an advocate of this well before the current situation with three keepers in the top 6, lol.

 

[SeamUp]

Off on a slight tangent re: the keeping. I find it amazing how many of this next generation of highly talented batsmen can keep wicket too. They clearly all watched AB de Villiers growing up.

Already Verreynne, Qeshile, Breetzke, Roelofsen, Makwetu, Rickelton have kept wicket this season domestically. Even if some are just limited overs.

Re : QdK - it seems he wants to keep being the keeper. So it would have to be a serious conversation from the other side to let someone else keep. Right now Verreynne and Klaasen look top notch in the field and from what I have seen Breetzke and Rickelton look excellent fielders too so these guys seem multi-skilled.

I get both sides of the argument. We won't know until QdK has an extended run without the gloves if it will help push him from say 40 to 45-50 average.

It is good to know we shouldn't have keeper depth issues moving forward

 

[Dendarii]

Off on a slight tangent re: the keeping. I find it amazing how many of this next generation of highly talented batsmen can keep wicket too. They clearly all watched AB de Villiers growing up.

Already Verreynne, Qeshile, Breetzke, Roelofsen, Makwetu, Rickelton have kept wicket this season domestically. Even if some are just limited overs.

I have a theory on that (which I may have expressed here already), which is that promising young batsmen have been encouraged to try keeping as a way of improving their chances of selection. If you've got two bastmen of approximately equal ability but one of them can keep then he's more likely to get the nod as it's always useful to have someone who's already in a team/squad who can keep in the event of injuries. Especially in South African cricket as it can make it easier to get the quota numbers right.

 

[Bahseph]

Must be why Klaasen is trying to get a bowl these days as well! Haha. Multi-skilled.

 

[honestbharani]

I have a theory on that (which I may have expressed here already), which is that promising young batsmen have been encouraged to try keeping as a way of improving their chances of selection. If you've got two bastmen of approximately equal ability but one of them can keep then he's more likely to get the nod as it's always useful to have someone who's already in a team/squad who can keep in the event of injuries. Especially in South African cricket as it can make it easier to get the quota numbers right.

I would have assumed they must have been told to try bowling first then. This whole "all our talented batsmen are keepers" has already taken its toll on India and is now taking up England. Glad to see you guys are next.

 

[Dendarii]

I would have assumed they must have been told to try bowling first then.

Batsmen who bowl occasionally tend to be spinners or at most medium pace, and this is South Africa - fast bowling or nothing.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah but I would assume decent part time spin > 3985279th keeping option.

 

[SeamUp]

I have a theory on that (which I may have expressed here already), which is that promising young batsmen have been encouraged to try keeping as a way of improving their chances of selection. If you've got two bastmen of approximately equal ability but one of them can keep then he's more likely to get the nod as it's always useful to have someone who's already in a team/squad who can keep in the event of injuries. Especially in South African cricket as it can make it easier to get the quota numbers right.

May very well be the case. I think keeping was always looked upon as maybe a burden. If you were such a good batsman - the gloves would be removed from you. Not anymore.

 

[SeamUp]

Here is a question to you guys.

Where do the following players stand ? You can answer in your thoughts and what you think Boucher & co are thinking. Can answer whether they remain with the senior Proteas team and or will they be in the SA A team taking up spots ?

1. Pieter Malan
2. Aiden Markram (think we know he will still be in the SA set-up but what approach do they take in getting him back)
3. Reeza Hendricks
4. Eddie Moore
5. Keegan Petersen
6. Zubayr Hamza (see Markram)
7. Theunis de Bruyn
8. Rudi Second
9. Pite van Biljon
10. Dwaine Pretorius
11. Dane Paterson
12. Beuran Hendricks
13. Sisanda Magala

We want as many of these young players kicking on for SA A and SA selection now. Some might miss SA A this winter but we hoping during next summer and next winter they will be in.

Rickelton, Roelofsen, de Zorzi, Breetzke, van Tonder, Ackerman, Qeshile, Makwetu [too soon for Bird, Parsons]
Mulder
Dupavillon, Sipamla, Coetzee, Jansen, Ntini

 

[StephenZA]

Some of these answers will be rude...

1. Pieter Malan... nice stop gap, but wrong generation.. toughest dilemma?
2. Aiden Markram.... why is he not being selected?
3. Reeza Hendricks.... has had his shot, lets move on.
4. Eddie Moore... should already have 3 tests under his belt.
5. Keegan Petersen.... talented kid that deserves a few games... but if does not make good quickly or SA move on.
6. Theunis de Bruyn... has had his shot, lets move on.
7. Rudi Second... sorry just in the wrong generation.
8. Pite van Biljon... see above
9. Dwaine Pretorius... why oh why do we keep doing this to ourselves.
10. Dane Paterson... not good enough to be international
11. Beuran Hendricks... see above

Raynard von Tonder... lets select him already.
Hamza.... why was he dropped from squad?

 

[StephenZA]

13. Sisanda Magala... T20 maybe. But better options available... so no.

We want as many of these young players kicking on for SA A and SA selection now. Some might miss SA A this winter but we hoping during next summer and next winter they will be in.

Rickelton, Roelofsen, de Zorzi, Breetzke, van Tonder, Ackerman, Qeshile, Makwetu, Lubbe [too soon for Bird, Parsons]
Mulder, Smith, Galiem, Potgieter
Dupavillon, Sipamla, Coetzee, Jansen, Ntini

See not difficult to select an SA A team... pretty straightforward really.

 

[SeamUp]

Some of these answers will be rude...

Raynard von Tonder... lets select him already.
Hamza.... why was he dropped from squad?

I know you have been very angry or frustrated

I agree on most of them. Pieter Malan is very tricky. Because If we drop him from the test team I would leave him out the SA A team too.

Thing is, I think our coaching staff with a bit of time can get Elgar, Markram, Hamza producing more to their levels in test cricket but Pieter Malan will never be good enough over a period of time and we already saw it in the test matches at the end. Nice innings to start but before you know it the average is 26 and it may not get better than that.

Keegan Petersen. Think he is a limited player but disciplined. If high quality opposition put pressure on him I don't think he has enough strokes to work his way out or even stick his way through it long enough before getting out. Going back to Bavuma almost was a nail in the coffin for him.

Those 2 are the most complex for me now because I think test cricket is where we shot ourselves in the foot this summer. Ok, it was very soon under the new regime and some young players maybe hadn't done enough yet but they NEED to get it right now moving forwards. But that predictable limited seam attack in Cape Town and PE played into England's hands and were patient enough to break us. We lacked any sort of attacking threat with the ball leaving the batting issues aside.

I know Graeme Smith said he wanted the SA A team to be the next best but volume of runs because they have played more games doesn't necessarily mean the older players are better.

 

[Dendarii]

I wrote up a reply, but got interrupted in the middle of it, so when I checked to see if there had been any additions to the thread before posting it, I saw that Stephen had pretty much said the same things as me, only a bit more succinctly.

 

[SeamUp]

In the Afrikaans newspapers this morning. Pay-wall.

Aiden: 'I'm back at the beginning'
Aiden Markram is now playing his cricket with the mindset that his career will start "again at zero".

Also the Citizen (pay-wall) : Aiden Markram: I was a bit of a brat

https://citizen.co.za/sport/south-a.../2252474/aiden-markram-i-was-a-bit-of-a-brat/

We can read Stu Hess'article though : https://www.iol.co.za/sport/cricket...-the-kick-up-the-arse-markram-needed-44484575

 

[SeamUp]

Am I forgetting some standout performance recently in ODIs for Bavuma that has Boucher saying he's secured it?

I know he was good in the T20s but Malan just did great stuff vs Aus so to say Bavuma has secured the spot is a bit weird...

Another question to bring up again - with Klaasen (and Verreyne) putting up their hands, is there any validity yet in taking the gloves off Quinny so he can focus on being our premier batsman?

I do know what you mean. His T20 performances were pretty good but he didn't have the chance to contribute in the 50-over games as an opener.

I think they in a tough situation right now. With Reeza Hendricks failing and Bavuma proving better and more consistent he is the only batsman of colour in the limited overs batting group right now.

It leads me to this. If Rassie is to make it to the next WC I only want him at 3 and now they will have Faf/Smuts in India so the only place for Bavuma is to open. I think he was batting 3 when Reeza opened v England ?

And then ou have the youth like J.Malan, Roelofsen, de Zorzi, Rickelton, Breetzke, Qeshile, Hamza who have limited overs franchise 100s behind their name and will come into the mix down the line for top order spots. I would say only de Zorzi , Breetzke and Qeshile could bat outside the top 3 if it happened. That is not even mentioning Markram.