The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[TheJediBrah]

And now the goal post changes.

how do you figure?

Even if all these points are taken into account it still doesn't make Symonds an objectively better bowler than Sanath.

I never said he was

By the same logic Symonds barely spun the ball and his straight up seamers would be cannon fodder in the sub continent. There's no point to make here. Only thing I can concede(which I don't agree) is Symonds and Sanath are equal in bowling as I posted earlier. Which is still is not a 5th bowling option.

I literally just said that I think it's reasonable to prefer Sanath in Asia. You even quoted that very post. But not everyone plays all their cricket in Asia

Imagine a top 6 of Tendulkar,Gilchrist,Richards,Kohli, Bevan and Devilliers. These are the balls faced on an average by Top 5 before getting dismissed (52+38+52+64+73=277). Assuming equal rotation of strike, Devilliers would have faced 47 balls around the time Bevan gets out, but this takes the number of overs to 54 even before a no.7 gets a chance to bat. You could add a buffer of 7-8 overs to account for superior opposition bowling and batting collapses in an ATG team, but it is highly probable that a no.7 would only be batting in the last 5 overs.

The above scenario doesn't change much if you replace Glichrist + Bevan with Sharma and Dhoni.

Would Symonds at no.7 do a better job than Flintoff or Dev or Klusener in the last 5 overs ? Chances are negligible.

Would these bowling all rounders do a better job than Symonds with the ball match after match ? Absolutely.

Bro I know you've already made that argument and I like it, as I said:

That's the argument though isn't it. Is the loss you get from having him as a bowler instead of Flintoff/Klusener/whoever more than the gain you get from his batting & fielding? I like the analysis that at no. 7 he's unlikely to bat as much but it's still not definitive for mine. And again I think a few of you are under the impression that he was a lot worse a bowler than he actually was.

I've also said quite a few times that if I'm picking Symonds in an ATG team, it's probably not at no. 7

 

[harsh.ag]

If you don't understand the discussion, which you clearly don't, I wouldn't bother attempting to contribute tbh

Go back a few pages and read my contribution to the topic, condescending latecomer

 

[ankitj]

for me the purpose is to pick the best team

Which is completely different from picking a team with no obvious weakness.

 

[TheJediBrah]

@h_hurricane, now for the sake of argument, assuming we are picking Symonds as a 5th bowler (which I probably wouldn't), where I differ from you is the cost-benefit analysis. I don't think the difference between Symonds and the others as bowlers is as big as you think (though it's definitely there). And I rate the fielding bonus + batting from Symonds more than you do. I also don't put all my stock in the mathematical analysis regarding balls-faced per position for this sort of exercise, though it's absolutely valid reasoning.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Go back a few pages and read my contribution to the topic, condescending latecomer

Does your earlier contribution have anything to do with your complete misunderstanding of my point regarding the benefit of having better fielders in the team? if not then it's not really relevant, given that you clearly responded pretty much directly to my point

 

[harsh.ag]

TJB conceded he wouldn't pick Symonds as the 5th bowler, so what's the argument?

He wants Symonds at 6 and someone like Klusener/Flintoff etc at 7, it seems. With Gilly opening and no Dhoni.

 

[harsh.ag]

Does your earlier contribution have anything to do with your complete misunderstanding of my point regarding the benefit of having better fielders in the team? if not then it's not really relevant, given that you clearly responded pretty much directly to my point

Please police people's jokes some more. It's a really good look.

 

[stephen]

I think the main thing that Symonds gives over Kapil/Klusener or even Flintoff was his ability to construct big innings if the situation called for it. Even in his pomp, Klusener was pumping out quick fire forties. He didn't really seem capable/willing to rescue an innings from an early collapse. Symonds showed on the biggest stage against ATG bowlers that he could pump out the big scores if needed as well as slog with the best of them. He was physically the prototype of a T20 slogger before they existed but he was also capable of innings such as the one against Pakistan in the world cup.

Whether you think a batsman like that is necessary in an ATG side or not is a question for the reader (since his bowling has already been discussed). But it's also debatable whether Rohit or Bevan would fit in an ATG side, especially in modern conditions.

 

[TheJediBrah]

TJB conceded he wouldn't pick Symonds as the 5th bowler, so what's the argument?

I don't finish work until 5 and this kills time like you wouldn't believe

4:57 now though and time for me to head off

my compliments to h_hurricane, bloke makes very good points and expresses them eloquently. The rest of you have some work to do. Harsh, work on your jokes champ

 

[OverratedSanity]

He's champed you, harsh. There's no coming back from this.

 

[ankitj]

Situation will call for Symonds' batting in probably 1 in 5 games. 5th bowler (combined quota) will bowl as many overs as Wasim Akram in every innings. I have no doubts in my mind what is more important base to cover.

 

[DriveClub]

Brah you just said you were killing time until 5 and then in the next line ask everyone else to post more eloquently lol

 

[h_hurricane]

@h_hurricane, now for the sake of argument, assuming we are picking Symonds as a 5th bowler (which I probably wouldn't), where I differ from you is the cost-benefit analysis. I don't think the difference between Symonds and the others as bowlers is as big as you think (though it's definitely there). And I rate the fielding bonus + batting from Symonds more than you do. I also don't put all my stock in the mathematical analysis regarding balls-faced per position for this sort of exercise, though it's absolutely valid reasoning.

I do rate Symonds' batting and fielding a lot but it is difficult to quantify the fielding aspect especially when all other factors not being same. We could say 20-30 or 40 runs per match but there is no way to get a definitive answer about it. Having said that, if Symonds and Klusener were pure batsmen with no bowling contribution, and assume they have similar batting records, I would pick Symonds over Klusener for his fielding.

Symonds at no.6 is not a shabby option either in an ATG team, but it is just that, I, like most others here, like the comfort factor which Dhoni or Bevan brings, the added reliability recover from batting collapses.

And yeah, mathematical analysis shouldn't be the sole factor in any decision making, but it is just that it is plain difficult to ignore the numbers in hand.

 

[stephen]

Following the argument that Symonds isn't enough of a 5th bowler for an AT Aus XI, I've got Watson at 7:

Gilchrist
M Waugh
Ponting
Jones
Symonds
Bevan
Watson
Warne
Starc
Lee
McGrath

What is the RoW side to face them?

Tendulkar
Rohit
Viv
Kohli
De Villiers
Dhoni+
Kapil
Hadlee
Akram
Garner
Murali

Obviously the RoW side would win more often than not but it's be a thrilling contest.

 

[h_hurricane]

Following the argument that Symonds isn't enough of a 5th bowler for an AT Aus XI, I've got Watson at 7:

Gilchrist
M Waugh
Ponting
Jones
Symonds
Bevan
Watson
Warne
Starc
Lee
McGrath

What is the RoW side to face them?

Tendulkar
Rohit
Viv
Kohli
De Villiers
Dhoni+
Kapil
Hadlee
Akram
Garner
Murali

Obviously the RoW side would win more often than not but it's be a thrilling contest.

Would be a great contest. So happy to see you put 5 indians in the ROW team Wasn't there some argument in this thread or another one about this ?

 

[honestbharani]

Watson at 7 will really work? He is at his best at the top, isn't he?

 

[stephen]

Watson at 7 will really work? He is at his best at the top, isn't he?

He was, but he wasn't bad down the order. IMO it's between him and Hussey at 7. Waugh and Gilchrist have the opener spots locked.

 

[stephen]

Would be a great contest. So happy to see you put 5 indians in the ROW team Wasn't there some argument in this thread or another one about this ?

Yeah I don't really like so many Indians in the batting line-up for the RoW side. But really there aren't that many competitive options.

 

[stephen]

Kapil is probably the most contentious shot. Klusener provably fits the role better, but I know Kapil has a lot of fans on here so I appeased the masses.

 

[DriveClub]

Flintoff, Cairns, Klusener better with the bat than kapil imo and better or equal with the ball