The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)

[h_hurricane]

Symonds and Kapil both horribly overrated here for different reasons. Symonds' bowling is nowhere near good enough for an ATG xi. Klusener I'm willing to buy as good enough, atlesst way better suited to that than Symonds.

And Kapil averaged ****ing 23. In an era where he played 60 over games, that strike rate was probably useless when there were so many overs to bat through and the dude would slog 30(20) and get out.

Kapil played a sum total of 15 games (out of 225) which were played over 55 or 60 overs. Here is the breakdown of the same.

1979 WC - 3
1983 WC - 8
1986 ODI series - 2
1990 ODI series - 2

All these matches were played in England. The summers being long days, the climate was more conducive towards long evenings. England was the only country which hosted 50+ overs matches I reckon. I could be wrong though(there might be some World Series matches between Aus and WI played over 55 overs I reckon). There were no standards followed in the number of overs per innings those days. Kapil's own debut series(1978 series vs Pak) had all matches as 40 overs each.

Do agree that I do over-rate him at times. But that is what drives one's love towards the game isn't it ?

 

[jimmy101]

A second XI

Desmond Haynes
Phil Simmons (5)
Richie Richardson (c)
Ramnarsh Sarwan
Shivnarine Chanderpaul
Marlon Samuels (6)
Dwayne Bravo (4)
Jason Holder (3)
Ridley Jacobs (wk)
Ian Bishop (2)
Courtney Walsh (1)

I like this team, can't really dispute any of these selections. Glad you included Simmons, it gets forgotten sometimes just how effective he was on ODIs. Would be fantastic in the T20 era.

In recent times I've changed my mind on the openers. Personally Gayle is first pick. He's one of the best ODI openers ever and we kinda forget it because he can't run any more because he's so old. I'd pick Haynes to partner him, who I always felt was better at ODIs.

If anything Haynes & Gayle would be the pair I'd prefer to watch. I feel Greenidge, Haynes & Gayle all have an equal claim to a spot in the side, but when Gayle has his eye in it just turns into catching practise for the crowd.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I like this team, can't really dispute any of these selections. Glad you included Simmons, it gets forgotten sometimes just how effective he was on ODIs. Would be fantastic in the T20 era.



If anything Haynes & Gayle would be the pair I'd prefer to watch. I feel Greenidge, Haynes & Gayle all have an equal claim to a spot in the side, but when Gayle has his eye in it just turns into catching practise for the crowd.

unrelated but your avatar makes me think Dasa has returned

 

[stephen]

A wicket keeper top 7:

Gilchrist
Bairstow
De Kock
Sanga
De Villiers
Dhoni
Buttler

 

[stephen]

On the topic of the number 7, here are the top wicket takers who bowled as 5th bowlers:

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Jayasuriya is the top, followed by some spinners who were picked as bowlers. Chris Harris is the top genuine part timer other than Jaya.

 

[ankitj]

More useful, here are players with >2000 runs and >100 wickets:

All-round records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

If I am gonna include Shiv Chanderpaul in my team, I'd rather open the batting with him than seeing him bat low... but he's played some gems in finishing games, (i.e, that Daryll Tuffey over).

 

[Migara]

im taking any of flintoff, imran, zulu and twatto as an allrounder before bloody symonds, a batsman who bowls a bit. twatto an absolute underrated gun tbh.

Or pick Jayasuriya at the top of the mark and settle the dispute

 

[marc71178]

Christ, how many times does it have to be shown to you, in detail, that Symonds WAS adequate as a fifth bowler, and did do the job regularly, and offers something in that role?

It’s never been shown because what you are claiming is bollocks.

 

[jimmy101]

unrelated but your avatar makes me think Dasa has returned

For anyone wondering...

 

[Red]

It’s never been shown because what you are claiming is bollocks.

Happy to copy/paste this again for you from the other ATG thread, because you didn't respond there:

Of the 158 innings he fielded in, he bowled 5 + overs in 109 of them. He averaged over 6 overs per innings. That number as an average is skewed because we regularly bowled teams out and occasionally played someone like Hopes or Harvey as 5th bowler or we selected 3 quicks plus 2 spinners. Or it suited Clarke's/Lehmann's bowling.

FWIW, here's a list of the matches he didn't bowl in:

ODI 1485: Aust bowled SL out in 37 overs (not required)
ODI 1563: Aust did not bowl (wash out)
ODI 1565: McG, Warne, Lee, Lee bowled out NZ in 30 overs (not required to bowl)
ODI 1677: Lee, Fleming, Harvey, Warne bowl out WI in 35 overs (not required to bowl)
ODI 1938: Clarke bowls 7 overs
ODI 1940 and 41: Aust play 2 spinners (and three quicks)
ODI 1970: Aust bowl out Namibia in 14 overs
ODI 1990: Lehmann bowls 6 overs and Harvey in the team
ODI 1991 : Aust bowl SL out in 38 overs
ODI 2016: Hauritz and Hogg play along with 3 quicks
ODI 2019: Harvey is selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2053: Aust bowl NZ out in 33 overs
ODI 2159: Washed out
ODI 2172: Aust bowl USA out in 24 overs
ODI 2209 : Lehmann bowls 7
ODI 2232: Hopes is selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2256: Eng only face 6 overs before wash out
ODI 2284: ICC World XI bowled out in 27 overs
ODI 2366: Cullen and Hogg selected along with 3 quicks
ODI 2367: Ditto
ODI 2473: Clarke and White share 10 overs
ODI 2577: NZ bowled out in 25 overs
ODI 2580: Watson selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2621: Washed out
ODI 2623: Clarke bowls 9 overs
ODI 2625 - end of Symonds career (approx 12 matched where Symonds doesn't bowl): Hopes selected as 5th bowler and ageing Symonds used as a batsman only.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

ODI 1970: Aust bowl out Namibia in 14 overs

Saw this live on my TV. What strange week of cricket that was. Bichel and McGrath

 

[Flem274*]

Happy to copy/paste this again for you from the other ATG thread, because you didn't respond there:

Of the 158 innings he fielded in, he bowled 5 + overs in 109 of them. He averaged over 6 overs per innings. That number as an average is skewed because we regularly bowled teams out and occasionally played someone like Hopes or Harvey as 5th bowler or we selected 3 quicks plus 2 spinners. Or it suited Clarke's/Lehmann's bowling.

FWIW, here's a list of the matches he didn't bowl in:

ODI 1485: Aust bowled SL out in 37 overs (not required)
ODI 1563: Aust did not bowl (wash out)
ODI 1565: McG, Warne, Lee, Lee bowled out NZ in 30 overs (not required to bowl)
ODI 1677: Lee, Fleming, Harvey, Warne bowl out WI in 35 overs (not required to bowl)
ODI 1938: Clarke bowls 7 overs
ODI 1940 and 41: Aust play 2 spinners (and three quicks)
ODI 1970: Aust bowl out Namibia in 14 overs
ODI 1990: Lehmann bowls 6 overs and Harvey in the team
ODI 1991 : Aust bowl SL out in 38 overs
ODI 2016: Hauritz and Hogg play along with 3 quicks
ODI 2019: Harvey is selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2053: Aust bowl NZ out in 33 overs
ODI 2159: Washed out
ODI 2172: Aust bowl USA out in 24 overs
ODI 2209 : Lehmann bowls 7
ODI 2232: Hopes is selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2256: Eng only face 6 overs before wash out
ODI 2284: ICC World XI bowled out in 27 overs
ODI 2366: Cullen and Hogg selected along with 3 quicks
ODI 2367: Ditto
ODI 2473: Clarke and White share 10 overs
ODI 2577: NZ bowled out in 25 overs
ODI 2580: Watson selected as 5th bowler
ODI 2621: Washed out
ODI 2623: Clarke bowls 9 overs
ODI 2625 - end of Symonds career (approx 12 matched where Symonds doesn't bowl): Hopes selected as 5th bowler and ageing Symonds used as a batsman only.

this isn't the point. we know that like all good part timers he bowled a lot in odis, the problem is he sucks. the bloke has a batting average for a bowling average. he's not the 5th bowler for an atg side.

 

[h_hurricane]

It really baffles me to see the same guys who pick Mcgrath over Imran in an ATG test team citing the extra millimeters which he brings as a bowler, pick Symonds in an odd batting position in ODIs over bowlers country miles better than him.

 

[Red]

It really baffles me to see the same guys who pick Mcgrath over Imran in an ATG test team citing the extra millimeters which he brings as a bowler, pick Symonds in an odd batting position in ODIs over bowlers country miles better than him.

This is just a classic comment from a guy whose opinions on cricketers are based on looking at statsguru on cricinfo, rather than actually having seen the players play and having insight into what they do/did.

 

[Red]

this isn't the point. we know that like all good part timers he bowled a lot in odis, the problem is he sucks. the bloke has a batting average for a bowling average. he's not the 5th bowler for an atg side.

No, it is the point. He didn't suck at all. He was a competent and capable 5th bowler who could keep it tight, and did so.

 

[h_hurricane]

This is just a classic comment from a guy whose opinions on cricketers are based on looking at statsguru on cricinfo, rather than actually having seen the players play and having insight into what they do/did.

You have a long history of attacking me and my opinions but I will leave you in your own world. You don't have to go through 100 filters in cricinfo to realize Symonds was 'a little better than thrash' bowler. You just had to watch him bowl over a period of time which I am sure both of us did.

 

[stephen]

The thing is that with Tendulkar and Viv both capable part time options the ATG ODI XI arguably doesn't need a fifth bowler anyway. Whoever bats number 7 should provably be picked based on pitch conditions more than anything else. If it's a highway then favour bowling, if it's got anything at all for the bowlers, favour batting.

 

[honestbharani]

Either way, Symonds won't fit in.

 

[harsh.ag]

Think a simple way to resolve it might be to ask yourself - "If I had $1000 riding on the team winning, would I rather have Symonds in at #7+5th bowler or Klusener/Watson/Flintoff?"