DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[OverratedSanity]

Lower than I expected but perhaps makes sense considering he was more excellent and everything without being beastly at any one feature this would be rated by (eg Ponting peak). I’m sure the really bad decline post 2011 didn’t help either.

Curious that the quality opposition is that low? He has a hell of an average vs Australia and England who were both better sides for the majority of his career, and a respectable one vs South Africa, New Zealand and Pakistan

Think sunilz is right that his mediocre performances against Pakistan in the 2000s (in some really high scoring series) would probably hurt him here.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Think sunilz is right that his mediocre performances against Pakistan in the 2000s (in some really high scoring series) would probably hurt him here.

That’s one to two series though, countered by many of the above. Interesting...

 

[h_hurricane]

I have become a very sharp critic of Tendulkar over the years and hold him down after 2011 for the third reason DoG mentioned, but boy, he was something else, for a scarcely believable period of time.

This is probably the first time I am appreciating Sachin after registering in this forum but it is long overdue. Tendulkar taking to opening the batting in ODIs catapulted a huge increase in frenzy among cricketing fans especially Indians.He took his attacking game to tests as well. Between 1994 and 2002, I used to memorize his batting average and career runs at the end of each match, taking me to a sense of ecstasy every time that average goes up and agony every time it goes down. Still vividy remember him averaging 51.73 in mid 1996 and 54.49 in mid 1999 but have no freaking idea of his averages in 2011 or 2012 for instance. This is what Tendulkar did to me at his peak, this is what he did to a lot of people.

Insane longevity, unreal fan following, larger than life superhero and perhaps the most worshiped cricketer of all time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

That’s one to two series though, countered by many of the above. Interesting...

You guys are only looking at one side of it. He also played more against Ban and Zim, and SL, than contemporaries like Ponting. And he did very well against them. That will hurt quality points.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You guys are only looking at one side of it. He also played more against Ban and Zim, and SL, than contemporaries like Ponting. And he did very well against them. That will hurt quality points.

It literally will not affect quality opposition points in any way because Bangladesh and Zimbabwe didn't count as quality opposition. No idea why yu lumped in SL other than to look extremely stupid but i guess i answered my own question.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Between 1994 and 2002, I used to memorize his batting average and career runs at the end of each match, taking me to a sense of ecstasy every time that average goes up and agony every time it goes down. Still vividy remember him averaging 51.73 in mid 1996 and 54.49 in mid 1999 but have no freaking idea of his averages in 2011 or 2012 for instance. This is what Tendulkar did to me at his peak, this is what he did to a lot of people.

Was at 56.94 after 177 tests.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It literally will not affect quality opposition points in any way because Bangladesh and Zimbabwe didn't count as quality opposition. No idea why yu lumped in SL other than to look extremely stupid but i guess i answered my own question.

Well obviously I didn't understand how the made up "quality opposition" criteria was calculated but nice to know you can explain it without being an absolute ****

 

[pardus]

3 things which probably cost him quality points
1. Inability to score 500 in any test series
2. Low average against Pak in 2000 when everyone made merry. ( Even Yuvraj averages around 60 against Pak in test iirc )
3. 2004-06 ,2011-13 period

Tendulkar's career average of low-to-mid 30s against McGrath, Donald & Akram led attacks does somewhat indicate his low quality points.

Yes, like you, I also think he never had a stand-alone stellar Test series against all-time great bowling attacks,the kind of attacks where even good batsmen struggle.
I mean, the kind of series performances that say Lara had against McGrath & co in 99 (in that series Lara scored 500+ runs @90+ average, and the next best West Indian batsman averaged less than 30),
or even the slightly less-phenomenal series that Viv Richards had against Imran & co in 80-81 (West Indies innings total never crossed 300 runs in that entire series, Viv scored 350+ runs @70+ average,
and the next best West Indian batsman was tail-ender Sylvester Clarke who averaged 35, no other West Indian batsman averaged above 30).

Although I do believe Tendulkar to be a more skillful batsman (technically) than either Lara or Richards, but for whatever reason his skills never translated in to superlative series-performances against
great bowling attacks. Yes, he would definitely score a hundred against those attacks (that his fans would often tout), but would do little else of note.

I remember Indian batting getting rubbed into the ground by Donald & co. in South Africa in 1997, and an year later against that same South African attack, and on those same South African pitches,
Azhar Mehmood played the series of his life, and Pakistan drew the series 1-1 and came out with their honor intact. As I watched Azhar Mehmood gut it out against the South African fast bowlers, I couldn't
help myself thinking why don't batsmen like Tendulkar come up with sort of series performance against this kind of bowling attack at least once? Isn't it when their team most needs their genius to flower?
Not only will such performances help their team by plain numbers, it will also have a dramatic psychological effect on rest of their team members (as well as demoralizing the opposition).

 

[Migara]

3 things which probably cost him quality points
1. Inability to score 500 in any test series
2. Low average against Pak in 2000 when everyone made merry. ( Even Yuvraj averages around 60 against Pak in test iirc )
3. 2004-06 ,2011-13 period

Having said that he did not face the best of Pakistani bowling as well. Evens out the odds for me.

 

[OverratedSanity]

,
or even the slightly less-phenomenal series that Viv Richards had against Imran & co in 80-81 (West Indies innings total never crossed 300 runs in that entire series, Viv scored 350+ runs @70+ average,
and the next best West Indian batsman was tail-ender Sylvester Clarke who averaged 35, no other West Indian batsman averaged above 30).

This is a little disingenuous to count that series for Viv but not Tendulkar's two series against a peak Steyn in 2010. Not much if anything between those two attacks in terms of quality.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Having said that he did not face the best of Pakistani bowling as well. Evens out the odds for me.

This is actually a fair point. The only two times Tendulkar faced the Ws was in 89 when Waqar was on debut and 99 when Waqar was basically a shell of himself.

 

[pardus]

This is a little disingenuous to count that series for Viv but not Tendulkar's two series against a peak Steyn in 2010. Not much if anything between those two attacks in terms of quality.

Not disingenuous. In addition to quality of the attack, I was explicitly pointing out the gap between the best & the second best batsman of the side in the given series.
That, to me, is also a decent indicator of how tough batting was, and the pressure on the best batsman.
I mean Viv had other 50+ avg Test series against Lillee, Imran, Hadlee, Akram etc. which I didn't (or rather couldn't) list as examples here.
Particularly singled out Viv's 80-81 series against Pak because of his stand-alone batting performance in that series.

 

[Migara]

I remember Indian batting getting rubbed into the ground by Donald & co. in South Africa in 1997, and an year later against that same South African attack, and on those same South African pitches, Azhar Mehmood played the series of his life, and Pakistan drew the series 1-1 and came out with their honor intact. As I watched Azhar Mehmood gut it out against the South African fast bowlers, I couldn't help myself thinking why don't batsmen like Tendulkar come up with sort of series performance against this kind of bowling attack at least once? Isn't it when their team most needs their genius to flower?

Pakistan drew it 1-1 because they had something India did not have. As much as Donald and DeVilliers intimidated Pakistani batting, Akram and Waqar dished it against SA batsmen as well. Then Pakistan had a good spinner too. If Pakistani's of 90's fielded better, they would have been very difficult to beat owing to bowling prowess they had.

 

[pardus]

Pakistan drew it 1-1 because they had something India did not have. As much as Donald and DeVilliers intimidated Pakistani batting, Akram and Waqar dished it against SA batsmen as well. Then Pakistan had a good spinner too. If Pakistani's of 90's fielded better, they would have been very difficult to beat owing to bowling prowess they had.

Actually Indians bowled very, very well in that series (at least in the first Test which set the tone, and also in the 3rd Test which India should have rightfully won).
In the first Test at Durban, South Africa got bowled out for less than 260 in both their innings (but India got bowled out for a pathetic 100 and 66).
Srinath & Prasad took 18 and 17 wickets in the series (comparable to Donald who took 20 wickets). So definitely can't completely blame Indian bowlers in that series.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Was at 56.94 after 177 tests.

Yep. Pretty mental.
I think he never touched 60 as a cumulative but was at 58.97 (or higher?) or something like that after his 90th or 100th test or thereabouts - much of which was accumulated over the notoriously difficult 90s.

 

[sunilz]

@Pardus
Both of us are saying same points. Tendulkar's lack of a 500 runs test series puts him at disadvantage in these quality points.

Take for eg . Kohli who batted like a tail in 2014-15 ENG tour, but compensated by scoring 600 runs in last tour and took his total average in ENG to 37, which is similar to Tendulkar average vs Donald/Pollock. Lack of big series means he could never increase his overall average against these ATG bowlers, because you are bound to have a poor series against these bowlers. This is where players like Lara/ Smith/ Kohli win . Kohli , Smith both already have around 4 to 5 series each where they scored more than 500 runs in half of the career as Sachin

 

[h_hurricane]

Highest career average ever achieved by Tendulkar during the course of an innings : 59.61

Highest career average ever achieved by Tendulkar after the completion of an innings : 59.16

Highest career average ever achieved by Tendulkar after the completion of a match : 58.72

All this during the 2nd test match of India tour of WI in 2002. During his first innings 117, he was 51 runs away from breaking the 60 average barrier before he got out.

 

[ankitj]

Funny you mention that. I remember tracking Tendulkar's averages around that time. Right after that peak average of 59.xx he went on to score 3 ducks and 1 single digit score in 4 innings which brought it down from the peak a fair bit.

 

[sunilz]

Funny you mention that. I remember tracking Tendulkar's averages around that time. Right after that peak average of 59.xx he went on to score 3 ducks and 1 single digit score in 4 innings which brought it down from the peak a fair bit.

Pedro Collins

 

[stephen]

I wish McGrath had have bowled to him more often than he did.