DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

[srbhkshk]

england isn't nz, as both sides demonstrate on the regular when they tour each other

Sure, but my point is that he could play swing.

 

[sunilz]

Did you really just compare an opener and someone who batted at 5/6 his whole career based on 4th innings average?

I am talking about mental toughness. Not comparing them as batsman. Steve Waugh was obviously better batsman. But Graeme Smith was incredible under pressure. Best 4 th innings batsman I have seen and also played incredible knock in that 438 game.

 

[h_hurricane]

I'd like to address one point that has been bothering the hell out of me for a while now. It's the myth that Ponting was bad vs spin.

He played 9 tests in Sri Lanka and averaged 48 there. He averaged over 50 against Sri Lanka and scored a butt ton of runs everywhere in Asia except India. Sri Lanka had better spinners and prepared turning decks whenever Australia toured and Ponting had little trouble against them.

Even in India it was mostly just Harbhajan that troubled him. At other times against India it was Ishant who troubled him (in fact he occasionally had issues against young, new tearaway quicks).

And even then Ponting conquered India in his final series there, scoring that massive ton (a double if memory serves).

Ponting was not weak against high quality spin, but he did have issues against a couple of specific bowlers who happened to be Indian.

Ponting averages 26 in India over 25 innings. Certainly a huge sample size. People try to discredit Dravid due to his SA record for instance and say he is inferior to Waugh due to that. As long as the analysis is not one eyed and consistently applied to everyone, I don't think anyone will have a problem.

I don't think there is much to pick between the likes of Ponting, Dravid, Waugh or Border as test batsmen. It all boils down to national or personal bias.

 

[stephen]

Ponting averages 26 in India over 25 innings. Certainly a huge sample size. People try to discredit Dravid due to his SA record for instance and say he is inferior to Waugh due to that. As long as the analysis is not one eyed and consistently applied to everyone, I don't think anyone will have a problem.

I don't think there is much to pick between the likes of Ponting, Dravid, Waugh or Border as test batsmen. It all boils down to national or personal bias.

That's my point really. Ponting was never weak to spin, he was just poor in a single country, mostly against a single bowler who figured him out at home for a while.

If Ponting was bad vs spin he'd have been more frequently dismissed by Murali (3) and Herath (4) when he played Sri Lanka.

Ponting was bad vs Harbhajan in India and briefly against Ishant, again in India. And while Kumble got him a few times as well it can hardly be said that he was Kumble's bunny. Spinners from other countries or outside India didn't have much success against him.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That NZ series owned, getting to 20 was a monumental achievement.

Daryl tuffey looked like prime curtly ambrose that series

 

[stephen]

I am talking about mental toughness. Not comparing them as batsman. Steve Waugh was obviously better batsman. But Graeme Smith was incredible under pressure. Best 4 th innings batsman I have seen and also played incredible knock in that 438 game.

4th innings runs are not a sign of mental toughness any more than first innings runs. In fact, first innings runs are more important to a side's chances of victory for two main reasons - scoreboard pressure/ giving your bowlers a rest and because second innings runs don't build partnerships as well as first innings runs. A batsman who makes a lot of runs in the first innings is more likely to have other batsmen score with him rather than leave him not out at the end of the innings.

 

[sunilz]

Ponting averaged 33 and 31 in last 2 tours to SL. He had only 1 decent tour to Srilanka in 1999 like Dravid in SA in 1996. He simply wasn't at his dominant best in Asia.
I will repeat it again, there are atleast 20 better players of spin than Ponting since 90s.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Sure, but my point is that he could play swing.

He could but he also did some nice downhill skiing in the 02 tour especially after dravid had done most of the work up the order. Especially at headingley, the conditions in which dravid got his ton on day 1 and those in which Tendulkar and Ganguly piled on the pain on day 2 couldn't have been more different.

He did play the moving ball ok for someone who always looked so prone to nicking off though. Very weird batsman.

 

[sunilz]

4th innings runs are not a sign of mental toughness any more than first innings runs. In fact, first innings runs are more important to a side's chances of victory for two main reasons - scoreboard pressure/ giving your bowlers a rest and because second innings runs don't build partnerships as well as first innings runs. A batsman who makes a lot of runs in the first innings is more likely to have other batsmen score with him rather than leave him not out at the end of the innings.

Good luck winning overseas against good teams with only first innings run. At home you can win with 1st innings runs because you are superior to your opposition. Overseas where you are generally inferior to home team , you are going to need both 1st and 2nd innings run.
When AUS whitewashed SL in 2004 , in all the 3 tests they needed 2nd innings runs.

 

[ImpatientLime]

i currently cannot tell the difference between this thread and the 'atg general' thread

absolute train wrecks the pair of them

 

[Malcolm]

Ponting averaged 33 and 31 in last 2 tours to SL. He had only 1 decent tour to Srilanka in 1999 like Dravid in SA in 1996. He simply wasn't at his dominant best in Asia.
I will repeat it again, there are atleast 20 better players of spin than Ponting since 90s.

Ponting struggled against Vaas in that series, not Murali. Ponting played Murali with ease every time they faced.

 

[stephen]

Ponting averaged 33 and 31 in last 2 tours to SL. He had only 1 decent tour to Srilanka in 1999 like Dravid in SA in 1996. He simply wasn't at his dominant best in Asia.
I will repeat it again, there are atleast 20 better players of spin than Ponting since 90s.

Just because you repeat something doesn't make it correct.

Good luck winning overseas against good teams with only first innings run. At home you can win with 1st innings runs because you are superior to your opposition. Overseas where you are generally inferior to home team , you are going to need both 1st and 2nd innings run.
When AUS whitewashed SL in 2004 , in all the 3 tests they needed 2nd innings runs.

Of course you need runs in both innings. But the first innings is where your entire team is more likely to make runs, so a top order batsman making runs in the first innings is the biggest determining factor in whether you win or not.

The best example of this is Pujara last summer. He set up the win for India by making bucket loads of first innings runs against Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood. He arguably won the series for India by grinding the 4 man bowling attack down in the first innings so his side could make easy runs late in the first innings and against fatigued bowlers in the second innings.

 

[srbhkshk]

He could but he also did some nice downhill skiing in the 02 tour especially after dravid had done most of the work up the order. Especially at headingley, the conditions in which dravid got his ton on day 1 and those in which Tendulkar and Ganguly piled on the pain on day 2 couldn't have been more different.

He did play the moving ball ok for someone who always looked so prone to nicking off though. Very weird batsman.

Yeah agreed, I think captaincy really made his batting go downhill. Still the finest tonker of left arm spinners I have ever seen - there was a time when captains just won't bowl a left arm spinner against him.

 

[Flem274*]

Sure, but my point is that he could play swing.

this is news to me. whenever i saw him in swinging conditions (which wouldnt have been in england at the age i was) he was a mess. his nick off to bond referred to by rtb is imprinted in my memory. he had no idea what to do and freaked out then tried to blame nzc.

 

[srbhkshk]

this is news to me. whenever i saw him in swinging conditions (which wouldnt have been in england at the age i was) he was a mess. his nick off to bond referred to by rtb is imprinted in my memory. he had no idea what to do and freaked out then tried to blame nzc.

maybe it was more about Bond rather than the swing itself.

 

[Migara]

Ganguly was one of those players who was absolutely test class and one of his side's best batsmen but simply wasn't an ATG. Just like M Waugh really.

Ganguly was a pain in the ass for some sides. Enjoyed that.

 

[Migara]

Ponting struggled against Vaas in that series, not Murali. Ponting played Murali with ease every time they faced.

That is something odd. Vaas almost always targeted best batsman of the touring side when playing at home. Ponting, Lara, Fleming, Atherton, Flower and Gayle are examples. The one's he struggled against was KP, Tendulkar and Kallis.

 

[vcs]

Ganguly's best ever Test knock was the one at the Gabba. Conditions were quite tricky IIRC. Then he played some great knocks in his 2007-08 comeback, 3rd Test against SA at home, double century vs. Pakistan.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He made a great 80 odd against SA at home on a really tough pitch that season. Brilliant knock.

 

[vcs]

Yep I think that's the one I was referring to. Had to win to draw the series, took a slender lead and then Sehwag spun them out in the 3rd innings.