The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

As a pure bowler Kapil won't make to current Indian side in Asian condition if Bumrah is fit. Bumrah, Shami and Umesh are better bowler in Asian condition than Kapil.
I am talking about Kapil the bowler not all rounder .

Not fully sure about this. Bumrah hasn't even played a test in Asia. Shami is quality, but Umesh has undoubtedly benefited from excellent bowling support. I don't see this spraygun being anywhere as good as Kapil as a pure bowler.

 

[srbhkshk]

As a pure bowler Kapil won't make to current Indian side in Asian condition if Bumrah is fit. Bumrah, Shami and Umesh are better bowler in Asian condition than Kapil.
I am talking about Kapil the bowler not all rounder .

Umesh is not a better bowler than Kapil by any stretch of the imagination regardless of where they are playing.

 

[sunilz]

Not fully sure about this. Bumrah hasn't even played a test in Asia. Shami is quality, but Umesh has undoubtedly benefited from excellent bowling support. I don't see this spraygun being anywhere as good as Kapil as a pure bowler.

Umesh has excellent record in Asia . His problem is overseas bowling. Between Bumrah and Kapil my first choice would be Bumrah now . It may change to Kapil again if Bumrah fails at home. But I am giving him benefit of doubt due to his excellent ODI record

 

[honestbharani]

I am specifically talking about the attacks Ponting faced. 2001 was Harbhajan and a bunch of no-hopers, no way any attack in the 80s was worse than that Indian attack. 2004 he only played one test and granted, that was a very good bowling unit. But in 2008, he faced a retiring Kumble, off color Harbhajan and Mishra. Sure, Zak and Ishant were very good in that series, but I feel it is comparable to any of our attacks in the 80s. And the 2 test series in 2010 had near peak Zak, off color Ishant, declining Bhaji and fairly new Ojha. And the 96 test had Joshi as Kumble's spin bowling partner and David Johnson as the opening bowler.

If you see the attacks he faced, I don't think it is really all that better than the 80s attacks in India.

I should clarify I was wrong iif I had stated that the spin attack of 2000s India was not better than the 80s Indian spin attack. They were but those were not the attacks Ponting faced.

 

[Logan]

Depends on how highly you rate Headley, Richards, Lara or Barrington

Lara, Richards and Barrington were great batsmen. Didn’t play exclusively at number 3 like Ponting did.



Ponting played more innings at number 3 than Lara, Barrington and Viv combined.

 

[sunilz]

Umesh is not a better bowler than Kapil by any stretch of the imagination regardless of where they are playing.

Umesh averages 3 points less than Kapil in Asia. Now I know this is due to him having better support bowlers but Umesh also has higher speed than Kapil. I think speed matters on flat decks . You are free to choose Kapil . I have no problem.

 

[Logan]

He is definitely among the best ever Australian batsman and was unfortunate to have played when Lara and Sachin were at their prime. Has a lot of holes in his record like many other ATGs but still an ATG for sure.

Ponting was equally good as Lara IMO. Ponting was more consistent while Lara had more flashes of brilliance.


Ponting had a 45+ average against every opponent. Lara had a sub-40 average against India.

If Ponting had a 26 average in India, Lara had 35 average in both NZ and India.

 

[sunilz]

Ponting was equally good as Lara IMO. Ponting was more consistent while Lara had more flashes of brilliance.


Ponting had a 45+ average against every opponent. Lara had a sub-40 average against India.

If Ponting had a 26 average in India, Lara had 35 average in both NZ and India.

Ponting wasn't as good as Lara against spin bowling .
However Ponting was better than Lara against pure pace bowling ( 140 and above speed )

 

[Burgey]

As a pure bowler Kapil won't make to current Indian side in Asian condition if Bumrah is fit. Bumrah, Shami and Umesh are better bowler in Asian condition than Kapil.
I am talking about Kapil the bowler not all rounder .

I think that’s right tbh. Be terrific as a third seamer allrounder though to allow two spinners to play all the time

 

[ataraxia]

I think that’s right tbh. Be terrific as a third seamer allrounder though to allow two spinners to play all the time

Coming from the same poster who said that 2 spinners are never required in ATG sides.

 

[sunilz]

Coming from the same poster who said that 2 spinners are never required in ATG sides.

He is talking about Asian conditions which we are discussing.

 

[Burgey]

It’s the current indian side being discussed here, custard nuts.

Edit: @ milenko

 

[honestbharani]

Ponting was equally good as Lara IMO. Ponting was more consistent while Lara had more flashes of brilliance.


Ponting had a 45+ average against every opponent. Lara had a sub-40 average against India.

If Ponting had a 26 average in India, Lara had 35 average in both NZ and India.

Nah.. Lara averages more than both Sachin and Ponting against the best bowlers of his era. We already had this discussion. I am not boiling this down to a numbers game again. There is a very valid reason why Ponting is rated a tier below those two by most of the cricketing community. Lara to me is the best test match batsman of the three and worst ODI batsman of the three. If you are combining formats, I still think Lara is #2 to Sachin's #1.

 

[Burgey]

Yeah I think ponting is marginally but discernibly below those two. Was the best player of pace out of the three but as an all round package the other two are better imo

 

[honestbharani]

I don't believe in classifying this "best against pace and spin" though. As a batsman you gotta bat all kinds, especially when discussing AT XIs. One thing about Ponting though is that if he does get in, he will score big and score quick and do it in a way that will completely crumble the oppositions' confidence. Its an intangible he always brought to the table for the Aussies.

 

[CricAddict]

I think that’s right tbh. Be terrific as a third seamer allrounder though to allow two spinners to play all the time

You would have seen both of them play at their peak. When I started watching cricket, Kapil was almost retiring and I was too young to assess Kapil at that time. From what you have seen, do you really say Umesh the bowler is better than Kapil the bowler?

 

[CricAddict]

I am in for separating this thread to tests and ODIs.Confusing quite a few times.

 

[CricAddict]

This should be the longest thread in CW history. Haven't seen any other thread with 10000+ posts.

 

[honestbharani]

Reminder that Umesh was not always this flash even in home conditions. A lot has had to have gone right for him to become good at least in home tracks. And he still serves up the hit me ball every other over. Only good thing is it has gone down from every over to every other over. And his wicket taking balls have become more impactful because of his own hardwork, and also the spinners being seen as the main threats, which I felt happened often in the England series in 2015-16. He is very much a SG ball bowler AFAIC. Not really sure he can be any good away from India especially when we have the other 4 to call upon overseas.

 

[Prince EWS]

This should be the longest thread in CW history. Haven't seen any other thread with 10000+ posts.

I will have to go through all 13,000+ posts separating the threads.