The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

Just curious what is Bevan’s “adjusted” SR?

This doesn't work because he doesn't open the batting, which are the only directly comparable and simple stats to measure. An ODI innings is 300 balls. In today's game, he'd be lucky to get much of a bat batting at 6. In the 90s he faced a lot more balls than he would today.

But to do the simplistic analysis, his adjusted average for the *90s* is 71.2 and his adjusted strike rate is 94. It's worth remembering that his 90s batting average was 60.

Are you really taking those adjusted average seriously . Do you really believe Tendulkar would strike @ 117 while averaging 57 in modern era ?

Yes, absolutely. If we're rating his overall record of 45 at 88 as being better than modern opening batsmen, then we have to assume he gets to inflate his stats by a sufficient margin to make that so.

The fact is that openers have benefited from the modern game better than any other type of batsman mostly because when batting conditions get easier, they get to bat longer and more aggressively.

If you absolutely muuuuust do that kind of average era adjustment then you should do it properly and formulate it in terms of above-replacement level, i.e. how much better a certain player was than a generic "median" standard international of the same type in the same era. Not just percentage comparisons.

You can adjust the *openers* that way because *openers* have the same resources available every match. You can't do the same for anyone further down the order. The middle order in the modern game gets squeezed for balls because the top order spends longer at the crease.

And the maths works out the same if you take the VAR. For example - in the 90s, Waugh averaged 37% higher than the average top 8 opener of the 90s. Today, averaging 37% more than the average opener gives him and adjusted average of 53.5.

 

[stephen]

Just read 15 pages of Australians and Indians fighting. Real waste of time.

Tendulkar
Rohit
Kohli
ABDV
Gilchrist/Richards
Dhoni +

I don't do this crap adjusting for era thing here. In an ODI XI Bevan will score far too slow. I'm putting Gilchrist in at 5 to do what he did in Tests. Dhoni and Gilly are interchangeable here. The thing is, someone like Bevan won't magically strike 30 more in the modern day. I do do stuff like this in Tests, but that is because they had the ability to score and average at the same level as modern Test cricketers do. If you are going to obey this adjusting thing then you might as well open with Greenidge (ave 45, sr 65).

Greenidge would be a good bet against many modern batsmen. The fact that he could play a moving ball immediately makes him better than Rohit IMO.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

We need a mathematical simulation modeling the batting of these greats of their respective errors. Someone get us a grant.

 

[stephen]

Yeah. Equate xth percentile player of one era to xth percentile player of another era.

Switching to medians doesn't change a whole lot.

I'll take Bevan's average (60.3) and strike rate (76.6) in the 90s as an example. Taking top 7 batsmen of top 8 sides only, the average batsman scored 31.3 and had a strike rate of 70.7. However, the median batsman by average was Naved Anjum (PAK) who averaged 22 at a strike rate of 110 (he played 3 matches and had a top score of 12*). The median batsman by strike rate was Akhtar Sarfraz (PAK) who played 4 ODIs and averaged 16.5 and struck at 66.67. Doing the same for the past decade reveals that Tim Paine (AUS) is the median batsman by average and he averaged 26.31. The median by strike rate is MS Wade (AUS) who averaged 26.84 and struck at 81.9.

Adjusting Bevan's 90s record gives him an average of 72.1 and a strike rate of 94, which is almost identical to using the mean as a base.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Just read 15 pages of Australians and Indians fighting. Real waste of time.

Tendulkar
Rohit
Kohli
ABDV
Gilchrist/Richards
Dhoni +

I don't do this crap adjusting for era thing here. In an ODI XI Bevan will score far too slow. I'm putting Gilchrist in at 5 to do what he did in Tests. Dhoni and Gilly are interchangeable here. The thing is, someone like Bevan won't magically strike 30 more in the modern day. I do do stuff like this in Tests, but that is because they had the ability to score and average at the same level as modern Test cricketers do. If you are going to obey this adjusting thing then you might as well open with Greenidge (ave 45, sr 65).

Have you gone off Buttler?

 

[Logan]

Gilchrist is accepted into plenty of standard ATG ODI XIs, it's not controversial. All this anti-Australian **** coming from this bloc of Indian posters is pretty tiresome.

Rohit > Gilchrist
Kohli > Ponting
Dhoni > Bevan
Murali > Warne
Kapil > Symonds

None of these are controversial or anti-Australian.

 

[Logan]

Bevan hit 21 sixes in 196 innings.

Dhoni hit 229 sixes in 297 innings.

 

[Logan]

Just so we're clear, I was advocating For Chappell. In hate the people who try to knock his record for any number of silly reasons. The guy is an atg and imo should be in any atg Oz Xi....

Greg Chappell is a legend and is one of the Top 3 picks for best batsman of the 70s/80s along with Richards and Gavaskar.

 

[ataraxia]

Have you gone off Buttler?

?

 

[stephen]

Rohit > Gilchrist
Kohli > Ponting
Dhoni > Bevan
Murali > Warne
Kapil > Symonds

None of these are controversial or anti-Australian.

If you need a keeper and have a choice between Rohit and Gilchrist you'd choose the latter.
That Kohli is a better ODI bat than Ponting isn't really challenged by anyone.
That Dhoni is better than Bevan depends on whether you need a keeper or not.
That Murali is better than Warne depends on where in the world you're playing.
That Kapil is better than Symonds depends on whether you want a batsman or a bowler primarily, with the other discipline being a bonus.

Bevan hit 21 sixes in 196 innings.

Dhoni hit 229 sixes in 297 innings.

I'm really not sure if you're genuinely as stupid as you come across as, but your posting has been worse than Sunilz and that's a pretty remarkable feat.

 

[Burgey]

Do these guys get the same warnings others get via email about forum atmosphere for this sort of posting?

Gilchrist is accepted into plenty of standard ATG ODI XIs, it's not controversial. All this anti-Australian **** coming from this bloc of Indian posters is pretty tiresome.


The men's ODI XI of the last 25 years | ESPNcricinfo 25 year Anniversary | ESPNcricinfo.com

Of course they don't because the people they're posting to don't have personal and nationalistic glass jaws like these muppets do, and therefore don't report things. Which in turn allows the Mods to turn their own institutional blind eye to them

 

[stephen]

Seriously though, probably the most underrated cricketer from the 90s was Anwar. Bloke was an absolute gun and had a great record against the top 8 sides and outside Asia too. In the 90s his stats are virtually identical to Tendulkar's, both inside and outside Asia.

 

[ankitj]

Do these guys get the same warnings others get via email about forum atmosphere for this sort of posting?

Gilchrist is accepted into plenty of standard ATG ODI XIs, it's not controversial. All this anti-Australian **** coming from this bloc of Indian posters is pretty tiresome.


The men's ODI XI of the last 25 years | ESPNcricinfo 25 year Anniversary | ESPNcricinfo.com

You clearly don't know what constitutes spoiling forum atmosphere. You have quoted vcs there who is one of the most gentle posters here. Posting opinions you hate ≠ spoiling forum atmosphere.

 

[Coronis]

Greg Chappell is a legend and is one of the Top 3 picks for best batsman of the 70s/80s along with Richards and Gavaskar.

Miandad and Border and perhaps even Boycott also in that conversation. Speaking of Boycott, where do you guys rank him amongst openers?

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Add Kerry packer into that ****

 

[Logan]

That Kapil is better than Symonds depends on whether you want a batsman or a bowler primarily, with the other discipline being a bonus.

.

It's why Symonds is pretty much the perfect number 7 for an ATG side - he's hyper aggressive but able to build an innings after a collapse.
.

How many times will you be proved wrong again and again? And yet you post the same non-sense

Andrew Symonds played the majority of his career in number 5 position. This is Kapil and Symonds’ record at number 7 position

At number 7 position

Symonds
Matches : 20
Average : 21
SR : 91

Kapil
Matches : 75
Average : 24
SR : 87

 

[ankitj]

A couple of times I picked Symonds in drafts I had him at #5

 

[Prince EWS]

General warning for everyone in this thread that it's getting a bit overly heated. You can argue your case without telling people they seem stupid or that they're posting nonsense etc.

I'm not going to give out any infractions for what's passed as it was all borderline but try to be a bit less personal if you all want to keep avoiding them.

 

[Coronis]

General warning for everyone in this thread that it's getting a bit overly heated. You can argue your case with telling people they seem stupid or that they're posting nonsense etc.

I'm not going to give out any infractions for what's passed as it was all borderline but try to be a bit less personal if you all want to keep avoiding them.

Personally I blame ODIs.

 

[Prince EWS]

Personally I blame ODIs.

I was actually thinking we might be better off having a separate thread exactly like this one except for ODIs, to at the very least nudge people in the direction of keeping Test and ODI discussions less blurred than they've occassionally ended up in here the past few days.