The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

I can bicycle at an average of 10 kmphr in the pot filled city roads easily. I just hope some one could declare me as the winner of Tour De France next year.

 

[ankitj]

If you absolutely muuuuust do that kind of average era adjustment then you should do it properly and formulate it in terms of above-replacement level, i.e. how much better a certain player was than a generic "median" standard international of the same type in the same era. Not just percentage comparisons.

Yeah. Equate xth percentile player of one era to xth percentile player of another era.

 

[ankitj]

It's funny that a side which had three of the top 7 destined for the all time side couldn't even make the world cup final this year, or 4 years ago for that matter. It's not like they even have the "we don't have any bowlers" excuse any more.

It was a matter of time before Stephen made this argument. This is **** argument every time it is made. As someone said despite India having a dominant decade in test cricket, only Kohli made it to the XI of the decade selected by CW.

 

[ankitj]

If there's one thing I have learnt here it's that when the Aussies are better overall statistically then they are obviously better, when they are worse overall then they are better because cricket in X conditions doesn't matter. When even that doesn't work then they are better because you had to see them play to understand their greatness or they had a great throwing arm which saved 0.2 runs each game.

0.2 runs each game

 

[ankitj]

Statistically, Allan Donald was a better bowler in ODIs than Glen McGrath.

McGrath playing for arguably the greatest team in history boosted his image while Donald was plain unlucky to have played for a lesser side which was captained by a match fixer.

Nah McGrath's miserly bowling makes him better. Played until 2007 yet finished with ER of under 4. It's lot closer between them in tests and it would be pretty reasonable for someone to rate Donald the better test bowler.

 

[h_hurricane]

It was a matter of time before Stephen made this argument. This is **** argument every time it is made. As someone said despite India having a dominant decade in test cricket, only Kohli made it to the XI of the decade selected by CW.

The strange part of that logic is he is not willing to do it for bowlers,as that would make Southee as good as Mcgrath and Rashid Khan way better than Warne.

Era adjusted, the pasting which Rashid received at the hands of England in this year's WC is not as bad as Warne's 0 for 49 of 6.2 overs in 1999 WC vs India

 

[sunilz]

Can someone also adjust home batting pitch for Smith , Dravid , Tendulkar and Kallis.
Dravid till 31 Mar 2006 Overseas average 64
Tendulkar overseas batting average till 31 Mar 2011 57
Kallis overseas batting average till 31 Mar 2011 55
Smith overseas batting average now 57

Yet neither Kallis, Sachin , Dravid ever touched 60 let alone 64 . May be their home pitches weren't Aussie roads.

 

[Logan]

Nah McGrath's miserly bowling makes him better. Played until 2007 yet finished with ER of under 4. It's lot closer between them in tests and it would be pretty reasonable for someone to rate Donald the better test bowler.

Player : Avg/SR/ER

In ODIs

Donald : 21.79/ 31.47/ 4.15

McGrath : 22.02/ 34.04/ 3.88




In Tests

Overall Average
Donald : 22.25
McGrath : 21.64

Overall SR
Donald : 47.03
McGrath: 51.95

Opponents with sub-25 average
Donald : 7/8
McGrath : 7/9

Opponents with a sub-50 SR
Donald : 6/8
McGrath : 5/9

Countries with sub-25 average
Donald : 7/9
McGrath : 8/10

Countries with sub-50 SR
Donald : 4/9
McGrath : 3/10

The general perception is McGrath is a Top 3 bowler while Donald is often regarded as Top 10 bowler at best. A detailed analysis of Donald vs McGrath in Tests shows Donald was as good if not better than McGrath in Tests.

 

[Logan]

Can someone also adjust home batting pitch for Smith , Dravid , Tendulkar and Kallis.
Dravid till 31 Mar 2006 Overseas average 64
Tendulkar overseas batting average till 31 Mar 2011 57
Kallis overseas batting average till 31 Mar 2011 55
Smith overseas batting average now 57

Yet neither Kallis, Sachin , Dravid ever touched 60 let alone 64 . May be their home pitches weren't Aussie roads.

Dravid underperformed against the two best teams of his generation.

In 55 Tests, he scored just 4 centuries against them.

In Dravid’s 110 matches that didn’t involve Aus or SA, he scored 32 centuries in 109 Tests.

 

[h_hurricane]

The primary issue with Dravid against Australia and SA was that he kept blocking and blocking the top bowlers and then one delivery would get him out. He was batting exactly the way the likes of Mcgrath wanted him to. He did nothing to put them off. A massively great player, an ATG but this is a hole in his record.

 

[Spark]

Surely the main problem with Dravid against Australia was that he kept getting bowled.

 

[ankitj]

Many people don't realize how ordinary Dravid's record against top 2 pace bowling sides is. They just assume it must be great because technique, defence, concentration and all that.

 

[sunilz]

Dravid underperformed against the two best teams of his generation.

In 55 Tests, he scored just 4 centuries against them.

In Dravid’s 110 matches that didn’t involve Aus or SA, he scored 32 centuries in 109 Tests.

You didn't get my point . I am saying all of Tendulkar, Kallis and Dravid should have averaged atleast 60 at one point in their career if their home pitches were like Aussie roads because their overseas average at one point in their career was better than Smith current overseas average.
I am not debating who is better batsman .

Basically I am trying to do a Stephen on Smith test average

 

[Logan]

Many people don't realize how ordinary Dravid's record against top 2 pace bowling sides is. They just assume it must be great because technique, defence, concentration and all that.

People assume Dravid was great against Australia because he it resulted in two wins.

His first ton was against Aus in the famous Kolkata Test.

His other ton was in Adelaide against an attack that had no McGrath, Lee or Warne. India was lucky that Agarkar took 6 wickets that day.

 

[Logan]

Sachin Tendulkar averaged 42+ against 9 countries and averaged 40+ in 10 countries.

I don’t think any other cricketer post-WW 2 had such a complete record.


Richards averaged 19 in NZ.

Sobers averaged 15 in NZ and 28 in Pak.

Lara averaged 33 in Ind and 36 in NZ. Lara averaged 34 against India.

 

[sunilz]

Sobers averages 28 in Pak ?? Now I understand why Pak fans don't rate him that highly . Similar to Murali and Aussie fans or Ponting and Indian fans.

 

[Logan]

You can check out my post on Page 857 comparing Sobers to another great batsman of the same era, Ken Barrington.

Statistically, Barrington has a better and more complete record than Sobers.


P. S - I have never watched both of them play and decided to analyse the stats rather than blindly listen to cricket historians who may or may not have been biased.

 

[Slifer]

Sachin Tendulkar averaged 42+ against 9 countries and averaged 40+ in 10 countries.

I don’t think any other cricketer post-WW 2 had such a complete record.


Richards averaged 19 in NZ.
Sobers averaged 15 in NZ and 28 in Pak.
Lara averaged 33 Ind and 36 in NZ.

Richards played all of 3 tests in NZ, hardly a fair sample size. And FWIW Greg Chappell and Kanhai both went 40+ home and away vs everyone.

 

[Logan]

Greg Chappell is an underrated Test batsman. One of the forgotten greats of the game. Remembered more for his horrendous stint as Coach of Indian Team.

Surprised about Kanhai though.

 

[sunilz]

Richards played all of 3 tests in NZ, hardly a fair sample size. And FWIW Greg Chappell and Kanhai both went 40+ home and away vs everyone.

Greg Chappell never played test in Ind and 1 test in SL . So sample size is also insufficient for him.