The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[trundler]

Saying India didn't do that well with Tendulkar, Kohli and Dhoni in the team is a lot like someone looking at an Australian scorecard from 2013 and wondering why a middle order of Ponting, Clarke and Smith didn't decimate everyone.

 

[Spark]

Saying India didn't do that well with Tendulkar, Kohli and Dhoni in the team is a lot like someone looking at an Australian scorecard from 2013 and wondering why a middle order of Ponting, Clarke and Smith didn't decimate everyone.

In fairness I still wonder that at times, subbing out Smith for Hussey. That middle order seriously underperformed for several years, by rights it should have been the best in the world. Mostly because of Ponting's decline and Hussey seriously reverting to the mean.

 

[h_hurricane]

There are a number of other openers in the same class as batsmen as Gilchrist. None of them can keep. Jayasuriya can bowl. But there's no point ending up 1/300 in an ODI when you could finish 5/350.

It's about winning and Rohit doesn't fit into an ATG side like Jayasuriya, Gilchrist or even Roy do. Because I don't want de Villiers facing 5 balls.

It's why Symonds is pretty much the perfect number 7 for an ATG side - he's hyper aggressive but able to build an innings after a collapse. He can also give you a full 10 overs and will likely save runs in the field and/ or create a chance.

By this same logic, why would you not pick Kapil over Symonds ? He could be more aggressive than Symonds, for once I would really like you to do era adjustments here . Symonds doesn't give you full 10 overs. Kapil or for that matter Flintoff or Klusener does.

 

[srbhkshk]

Saying India didn't do that well with Tendulkar, Kohli and Dhoni in the team is a lot like someone looking at an Australian scorecard from 2013 and wondering why a middle order of Ponting, Clarke and Smith didn't decimate everyone.

2011 WC was the closest to all three of them not being far from there peak - and we kinda won that with a bowling attack Bangladesh would laugh at. Yuvi was our best bowler ffs.

 

[Spark]

2011 WC was the closest to all three of them not being far from there peak - and we kinda won that with a bowling attack Bangladesh would laugh at. Yuvi was our best bowler ffs.

That's a bit unfair to both Ashwin, who at the time was still a very solid ODI bowler, and Zaheer Khan

 

[OverratedSanity]

2011 WC was the closest to all three of them not being far from there peak - and we kinda won that with a bowling attack Bangladesh would laugh at. Yuvi was our best bowler ffs.

Very harsh on Zaheer this. The guy was awesome that tournament.

 

[shifty_eyes]

You mean like a team with Smith ( 2nd best batsman after Bradman ), Lyon ( Best spin bowler in non-Asian condition ) and Cummins ( Best fast bowler according to ICC rankings ) is ranked no.5 in ICC test rankings in a sports with 8 decent teams.

Test team of this decade picked by CW only had Kohli despite India having highest W/L ratio. Funny how that works.

 

[srbhkshk]

That's a bit unfair to both Ashwin, who at the time was still a very solid ODI bowler, and Zaheer Khan

Yeah I was exaggerating but seriously, that was not a world cup winning attack.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah I was exaggerating but seriously, that was not a world cup winning attack.

Without a captain who knew how to keep the runs down in the middle overs, that team wouldn't have come close to winning it.

 

[harsh.ag]

Zak was the best bowler for India by a long way. Sachin, Yuvi, Zak, Gambhir, Sehwag - that's who won India that WC. Kohli was good. Dhoni was meh before the final.

What a batting that side had.

 

[sunilz]

There is a reason David Warner thinks Rohit Sharma can break Lara's 400 record . Not every Aussie fans are like Stephen .
https://twitter.com/CrazyCricFreak/...eak-brian-laras-record-of-highest-test-score/

 

[Spark]

Yeah I was exaggerating but seriously, that was not a world cup winning attack.

Nor is England's this year if we look at their record over the last four years. They just happened to peak at the right time.

 

[Burgey]

By this same logic, why would you not pick Kapil over Symonds ? He could be more aggressive than Symonds, for once I would really like you to do era adjustments here . Symonds doesn't give you full 10 overs. Kapil or for that matter Flintoff or Klusener does.

Flintof good by Pommie standards but meh otherwise and Klusener has a couple of awrslme years but otherwise unexceptional. Kapil a top shout imo but I always really liked him so probably biased

 

[stephen]

By this same logic, why would you not pick Kapil over Symonds ? He could be more aggressive than Symonds, for once I would really like you to do era adjustments here . Symonds doesn't give you full 10 overs. Kapil or for that matter Flintoff or Klusener does.

Honestly any one of Kapil, Flintoff, Symonds, Afridi, Russell or Klusener could fill in at 7 without affecting too much - they're going to be a 5th bowler and their job will be to hit out at the end 9 times out of 10.

I like Symonds for that role because he's the best genuine batsman of that lot (for the rare occasion the top order gets run through) and he was excellent in the field. Klusener is a good bet in countries where pace is king, but Flintoff/ Kapil aren't too far behind. Bearing in mind that whoever bats there is going to be bowling second drop and no higher so the guys who got the new ball wouldn't perform at their career record (though they likely wouldn't have to bowl at the death either).

 

[Teja.]

I think Bevan is marginally better than Dhoni but overall I think the necessity of the ‘finisher’ class in Cricket RPG is inordinately fetishised and separated from the broader category of ‘middle order batsmen who perform well in chases’.

 

[stephen]

I think Bevan is marginally better than Dhoni but overall I think the necessity of the ‘finisher’ class in Cricket RPG is inordinately fetishised and separated from the broader category of ‘middle order batsmen who perform well in chases’.

Yeah honestly the top 5 are going to do the job 90% of the time in an AT side. Numbers 6 and 7 will usually face no more than a dozen balls when they have Sachin, Viv, Kohli and de Villiers ahead of them.

 

[ankitj]

That's a bit unfair to both Ashwin, who at the time was still a very solid ODI bowler, and Zaheer Khan

Ashwin played only 2 games in 2011 world cup

 

[stephen]

For reference, over their entire careers those 4 batsmen combined averaged 189 balls per innings.

 

[h_hurricane]

For reference, over their entire careers those 4 batsmen combined averaged 189 balls per innings.

I believe "Per dismissal" is a better metric here. They averaged 220 balls for this. 2 other batsmen in top 6 would be able to face 70-80 balls on most occasions. This is strengthening the case of a hitter-plus-proper bowler at no. 7.

 

[stephen]

You're probably right since the 189 included innings that are cut short because they won or because of weather.

A 30 ball averaging hitter opening plus a 30 ball hitter at 6 leaves 20 balls on average for 7-11. Still, a Bevan or Dhoni at 6 would just about cement the side as being invulnerable, especially given a hypothetical ATG attack bowling at them.