The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

On the other hand, Dhoni gives you a very marginally worse batsman - and probably the best "reader" of a game and constructor of a chase in the history of the game" - whilst also giving you Rohit, who in my eyes is a fair bit better than Gilchrist (and Jayasuriya). I don't see how this tradeoff is so obviously in favour of Gilchrist here.

And, uh



?????????

Rohit has a strike rate barely above average for his era. If you're an opener with an ATG middle order behind you you can't get out for 20 (35) trying to set yourself up for 145 (160). You're better off with a Roy 20(15) potentially turning into a 75(60) in that case.

 

[Spark]

Rohit has a strike rate barely above average for his era. If you're an opener with an ATG middle order behind you you can't get out for 20 (35) trying to set yourself up for 145 (160). You're better off with a Roy 20(15) potentially turning into a 75(60) in that case.

Good thing he's really, really, really, really good at not getting out for 20(35) then. Quantity still has a dominating quality of its own, especially opening, and the guy just scores exceptionally consistently.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Rohit has a strike rate barely above average for his era. If you're an opener with an ATG middle order behind you you can't get out for 20 (35) trying to set yourself up for 145 (160). You're better off with a Roy 20(15) potentially turning into a 75(60) in that case.

I mean if you're willing to admit Jason Roy is a better batsman than Gilchrist too then fair enough.

 

[Spark]

I mean if you're willing to admit Jason Roy is a better batsman than Gilchrist too then fair enough.

I mean then I would start complaining. Roy has been around for, what, four years?

 

[stephen]

The reason stephen is so adamant over Gilchirst in the first place is because he doesn't want to let go of Bevan.

Because if you want a gung-ho attacking opener as Tendulkar's partner (as Gilly certainly is compared to Rohit), then Jayasuriya and Bairstow and Warner and Sehwag are just as good.

It's just that stephen won't pick them otherwise he will have to pick Dhoni as wk and Bevan has to be set aside.

It's like you didn't even read my posts. I literally said I'd have Dhoni in my side in half the world.

Rohit doesn't make it unless he's replacing Tendulkar, which is ridiculous.

 

[harsh.ag]

Have said this before but ABdV's chasing ability is right up there. You don't actually need either Dhoni or Bevan to do that.

ABdV has 1193 runs at an average of 108.45(!) and an SR of 108.15 while chasing (batting at #5 or #6)

ABdV can do everything Bevan did in a much better way. It's just that he is not known for that because he is much more complete than Bevan.

 

[Burgey]

Lol what a shot. Remember that, but had (perhaps deliberately) forgotten Doherty & McKay ever played

 

[Spark]

Lol what a shot. Remember that, but had (perhaps deliberately) forgotten Doherty & McKay ever played

Tbf I thought "Doherty as a death bowler" wasn't a terrible idea, as darting nothing balls at the batsmen's foot is one of the few things I felt was within his capabilities

McKay, though...

 

[stephen]

I mean if you're willing to admit Jason Roy is a better batsman than Gilchrist too then fair enough.

There are a number of other openers in the same class as batsmen as Gilchrist. None of them can keep. Jayasuriya can bowl. But there's no point ending up 1/300 in an ODI when you could finish 5/350.

It's about winning and Rohit doesn't fit into an ATG side like Jayasuriya, Gilchrist or even Roy do. Because I don't want de Villiers facing 5 balls.

It's why Symonds is pretty much the perfect number 7 for an ATG side - he's hyper aggressive but able to build an innings after a collapse. He can also give you a full 10 overs and will likely save runs in the field and/ or create a chance.

 

[Spark]

Have said this before but ABdV's chasing ability is right up there. You don't actually need either Dhoni or Bevan to do that.

ABdV has 1193 runs at an average of 108.45(!) and an SR of 108.15 while chasing (batting at #5 or #6)

ABdV can do everything Bevan did in a much better way. It's just that he is not known for that because he is much more complete than Bevan.

That really surprises me tbh. Does anyone have example of "great"/tight/difficult chases he pulled off? That's typically what I associate with great chasers otherwise you start calling Michael Clarke a great chaser.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's like you didn't even read my posts. I literally said I'd have Dhoni in my side in half the world.

Rohit doesn't make it unless he's replacing Tendulkar, which is ridiculous.

I mean I still think you're wrong, but I get it.

So are you okay with not having Ponting/Jones in the Oz XI and someone like Warner and Watson ahead of him (the ball eating thing)?
And why don't you rank Starc ahead of McGrath?

 

[Spark]

There are a number of other openers in the same class as batsmen as Gilchrist. None of them can keep. Jayasuriya can bowl. But there's no point ending up 1/300 in an ODI when you could finish 5/350.

It's about winning and Rohit doesn't fit into an ATG side like Jayasuriya, Gilchrist or even Roy do. Because I don't want de Villiers facing 5 balls.

It's why Symonds is pretty much the perfect number 7 for an ATG side - he's hyper aggressive but able to build an innings after a collapse. He can also give you a full 10 overs and will likely save runs in the field and/ or create a chance.

Do you not recall any of Rohit's big innings? He most definitely does not leave the side at 1/300, usually once he passes 100 he starts bombing sixes into the crowd for fun.

 

[stephen]

Have said this before but ABdV's chasing ability is right up there. You don't actually need either Dhoni or Bevan to do that.

ABdV has 1193 runs at an average of 108.45(!) and an SR of 108.15 while chasing (batting at #5 or #6)

ABdV can do everything Bevan did in a much better way. It's just that he is not known for that because he is much more complete than Bevan.

Kohli's chasing ability is pretty damn good too.

Bevan/Dhoni would be more of a safety net for an ATG side who would slide down the order and not end up batting often, but could come in if the side found itself 4/60 and turn that into a defensible total or manage the chase. Neither would bat ahead of Klusener/Symonds if the 4th wicket fell after the 40th over.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah, stephen's point that even if Rohit works you get 300/1 is flat out wrong. You get 350+.

 

[sunilz]

The kind of logic given by stephen today to prove Gilchrist is better than Rohit is quite similar to what Tendulkar fans used to give to prove him better than Bradman . Looks like the role has been reversed .

 

[OverratedSanity]

Do you not recall any of Rohit's big innings? He most definitely does not leave the side at 1/300, usually once he passes 100 he starts bombing sixes into the crowd for fun.

It's happened on a handful of occasions to be fair to Stephen but yeah, most of the time, if Rohit gets to 100, he basically breaks the game.

 

[stephen]

Do you not recall any of Rohit's big innings? He most definitely does not leave the side at 1/300, usually once he passes 100 he starts bombing sixes into the crowd for fun.

Yeah he does and when he does get going he goes massive. But it's when he doesn't that he chews up too many balls for this side.

I think when you have such a strong middle order someone aggressive at the top will win you more matches than someone who takes a while to get going. It's why I don't think Hayden's 181* was a great innings - he needed to accelerate more than he did to win the match.

 

[Spark]

India's middle order hasn't actually been that strong for a while though. It's the top three which has just crushed teams since Dhoni became kind of meh post-2015.

 

[harsh.ag]

That really surprises me tbh. Does anyone have example of "great"/tight/difficult chases he pulled off? That's typically what I associate with great chasers otherwise you start calling Michael Clarke a great chaser.

He only played 22 innings at #5 and just 2 at #6. Not much of a sample really but it shows what he could do if afforded that role.

Chased down 254 against NZ after SA were 4-125
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-odi-south-africa-tour-of-new-zealand-2011-12

Most recently chased down 237 against England after SA were 3-22
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-5th-odi-england-tour-of-south-africa-2015-16

If Bevan and Dhoni had played those knocks, everyone would have gone "Oh such a great chase construction". Tbh they would have likely stretched both chases for much longer than he did too.

 

[Spark]

He only played 22 innings at #5 and just 2 at #6. Not much of a sample really but it shows what he could do if afforded that role.

Chased down 254 against NZ after SA were 4-125
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-odi-south-africa-tour-of-new-zealand-2011-12

Most recently chased down 237 against England after SA were 3-22
https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...-5th-odi-england-tour-of-south-africa-2015-16

If Bevan and Dhoni had played those knocks, everyone would have gone "Oh such a great chase construction". Tbh they would have likely stretched both chases for much longer than he did too.

Eh obviously those weren't great starts but those to me look very comfortable, with 4-5 overs remaining in both cases. Granted Dhoni sometimes made chases into tight chases, but what I mean is the kind of "80 off 60 to get, how do you work this out" that Kohli and Dhoni absolutely perfected about 5 years ago.