The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[honestbharani]

why exactly is kallis not in the same league though? Are there any good reasons to make that claim other than some pundits said that?

As LT here said "they'd be making songs about kallis if he played in the 60s". I don't see how kallis is not even close to Sobers.

I only saw one of them bat. Almost everyone who saw both not only rate Sobers higher, they rate him at a level higher than Kallis. And I think Sobers' peak ratings as a batsman indicate that as well.

 

[akilana]

I only saw one of them bat. Almost everyone who saw both not only rate Sobers higher, they rate him at a level higher than Kallis. And I think Sobers' peak ratings as a batsman indicate that as well.

How does Kallis’s peak compare to Sachin’s?

 

[smash84]

I only saw one of them bat. Almost everyone who saw both not only rate Sobers higher, they rate him at a level higher than Kallis. And I think Sobers' peak ratings as a batsman indicate that as well.

I didn't see sobers bat either but his batting record certainly leaves a lot to be desired on closer scrutiny.

While i have also seen most rate sobers higher (among those who have seen both) I haven't come across anyone who explicitly suggested it wasn't close.

 

[Logan]

Kallis definitely didn't have the intangibles though and the fact that sobers was seen as a more attacking batsman also helps his cause in most people's eyes but its certainly close between the two.

Similar to another great batsman back then, Ken Barrington. A great defensive batsman often accused of playing slowly. The toughest batsman to dismiss.

 

[smash84]

Similar to another great batsman back then, Ken Barrington. A great defensive batsman often accused of playing slowly. The toughest batsman to dismiss.

It is hard to dismiss Sobers because he was also wildly popular. Was seen as a bit of a hard partying, flamboyant, stroke maker (on and off the field ) and had some pretty remarkable feats like hitting 6 sixes in an over, bowling different bowling styles etc.

 

[vcs]

Kallis in my mind suffers a bit from the perception that he did not have much of an impact against the GOAT Aussie team (upto 2006). Looking purely at his numbers, this perception seems a tad unfair because they are not that bad. Tendulkar and Lara stood out on an individual basis against them in several series but I just can't remember Kallis having that kind of impact.

This is purely judging him as a batsman vs. those two. As a cricketer, he is definitely at least on par or possibly ahead because of the bowling, catching etc.

 

[honestbharani]

I didn't see sobers bat either but his batting record certainly leaves a lot to be desired on closer scrutiny.

While i have also seen most rate sobers higher (among those who have seen both) I haven't come across anyone who explicitly suggested it wasn't close.

You mean Kallis' doesn't on not even particularly close scrutiny?

Anyone who states Sobers is the greatest since Bradman is obviously explicitly telling you Kallis is not at that level when you see the very many contemporaries of Kallis they will rate ahead of him. And by definition, it means they all rank below Sobers too.

 

[Logan]

Ken Barrington vs Gary Sobers.

Ken Barrington’s Average

In Aus : 69
In Eng : 50
In Ind : 96
In NZ : 73
In Pak : 72
In SA : 100
In WI : 44


vs Aus : 43
vs Ind : 75
vs WI : 33
vs NZ : 99
vs Pak : 79
vs SA : 50


Gary Sobers average

In Aus : 46
In Eng : 53
In Ind : 99
In NZ : 15
In Pak : 28
In WI : 66

vs Aus : 43
vs Ind : 83
vs Eng : 60
vs NZ : 23
vs Pak : 89


Gary Sobers
Overall Average :57
Home : Average of 66
Away : Average of 50

Ken Barrington
Overall Average : 58
Home : Average of 50
Away : Average of 69


I have never seen both of them bat. Statistically, Ken Barrington is a better batsman and has more rounded record than Gary Sobers.

Have cricket historians ignored Ken Barrington simply because Sobers’ flair overshadowed him and his batting style wasn’t attractive?

 

[honestbharani]

Or maybe because like most sane people they understand that cricket statistics especially taken without context are nowhere near a fair representation of actual quality beyond being able to provide ballpark guidelines.

 

[Red]

Smith could end up with an average of 60.

Kohli could end up with an average of 55+ in Tests, 50+ in T20s and 60+ in ODIs.

Does Kohli’s extraordinary performance in all formats not give him an advantage?

Not when we're discussing test greats.

 

[Red]

I very much dispute Gilchrist for ODIs.

On what basis?

 

[Red]

Kallis definitely didn't have the intangibles though and the fact that sobers was seen as a more attacking batsman also helps his cause in most people's eyes but its certainly close between the two.

Being a free scoring attacking batsman is highly desirable and beneficial, and makes you a better cricketer.

Obdurate defensive batting is fine and has its place, but a guy like Sobers who can score big and freely and quickly is a massive advantage in terms of winning tests. In my eyes it places Sobers above Kallis by a significant margin when everything else is seemingly equal.

 

[OverratedSanity]

On what basis?

Dhoni?

 

[ataraxia]

I sometimes compare Barrington and Sobers. I note that Barrington's bowling average is also better than Sobers'. Stats are weird.

 

[Coronis]

A few cricket historians have said Ken Barrington was the best batsman of Sobers’ era. Barrington was regarded as the toughest batsman to dismiss.

Barrington’s style was similar to Kallis and often accused of being defensive and slow. He was often overlooked for the flair and style of Sobers’ batting.

P. S - I have never seen Sobers or Barrington play. Not saying one is better than the other. Just putting out a different(or minor)opinion that Barrington was the greatest run accumulator back then. I would love to know more about Ken Barrington.

Originally Barrington was also a rather dashing strokemaker, but later changed his style, in part because of being dropped. Attacking batsmen have and will always be prized above defensive batsmen, thats just how it is. ftr, Sobers SR was about 52-53, whilst Barrington’s was about 41, with Kallis at 46.

 

[Logan]

I have always been curious about the lack of any mention of Barrington in most ATG threads. Barrington performed against everyone and everywhere yet even hardcore fans barely remember him.

An average of 58 after playing 80 Tests is unreal. Among players who have scored more than 5000 runs, only Don Bradman and Steven Smith average more than Barrington.

 

[honestbharani]

Wally Hammond > Ken Barrington based on whatever I have read.

 

[Teja.]

GS had a much longer career than KB.

 

[Logan]

GS had a much longer career than KB.

Ken Barrington played 82 Tests.

Gary Sobers played 93 Tests.

Yes, Sobers played more Tests. But won’t call it a “much longer” career.

Wally Hammond > Ken Barrington based on whatever I have read.

Wally Hammond played in the late 20s and 30s. Ken Barrington played in the 50s and 60s.

Different generations. Tough to compare. Different styles of play.

 

[Logan]

Highest Points Achieved in Batting and Bowling

Botham 811, 911

Kallis 935, 742

Sobers 938, 715

Imran 650, 922

Miller 681, 862

Faulkner 877, 639

Benaud 623, 863

Greig 750, 702

Kapil 598, 877


I believe Ian Botham was the only all rounder in history who was a genuine match winner with both the bat and ball. 14 Test centuries and 27 5-WPI is proof of that. No one else achieved the rare double of 10+ Test centuries and 10+ 5WPI.