The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[h_hurricane]

How is Kapil a greater Test cricketer than Gavaskar?

Gavaskar is a Top 10 Batsman. The greatest opener post-WW 2.

Kapil Dev was great for Indian standards. But not sure if anyone can call him a great bowler. He wouldn’t even be among Top 30 bowlers in the last 5 decades.

An ATG all rounder does not have to be an ATG bowler. A record of 29 with the ball and 31 with the bat is massively impressive. It is not like he played only 50-60 matches. The most durable bowling all rounder ever.

 

[Prince EWS]

Just for the benefit of the newer members involved in this discussion, you're obviously free to rate players any way you like, but we tend to have a "Tests unless specifically stated otherwise" norm on CW. We discuss ODIs a lot too but we tend to discuss them separately as their own thing rather than as a subcategory when comparing two players overall. Cross-format comparisons are pretty rare and usually specifically called out as such when they happen.

You're free to flip the bird to this system but having just read the last hundred or so posts in here, it struck me that some of the debates basically arose because one person was counting ODIs and one person wasn't, and I think it was a more of a communication barrier than an actual opinion clash per se.

 

[Logan]

I disagree with you. I would stick to my opinion that Sunil Gavaskar was a greater Test cricketer than Kapil Dev.

Kapil came from a nation which ridicules fast bowlers, a breed looked down upon like some unwanted species and also suffered from zero bowling support, yet was easily the Iron man of Indian cricket. Get him to bowl with the likes of Bumrah and Shami and see his figures improve.
.

On a completely unrelated note, using the same logic Hadlee is the undisputed GOAT fast bowler.

 

[Logan]

An ATG all rounder does not have to be an ATG bowler. A record of 29 with the ball and 31 with the bat is massively impressive. It is not like he played only 50-60 matches. The most durable bowling all rounder ever.

Kapil Dev was an ATG all rounder. I don’t deny that. Kapil is an automatic choice for any Indian ATG team. He was probably the fittest of all 4 all rounders.

Just saying Gavaskar was a greater Test cricketer.

Post-WW 2, there have been around a dozen great all rounders. Kapil Dev would be one of them.

Post-WW 2, there have been very few great openers. And Gavaskar is the absolute best among them.

 

[h_hurricane]

Just for the benefit of the newer members involved in this discussion, you're obviously free to rate players any way you like, but we tend to have a "Tests unless specifically stated otherwise" norm on CW. We discuss ODIs a lot too but we tend to discuss them separately as their own thing rather than as a subcategory when comparing two players overall. Cross-format comparisons are pretty rare and usually specifically called out as such when they happen.

You're free to flip the bird to this system but having just read the last hundred or so posts in here, it struck me that some of the debates basically arose because one person was counting ODIs and one person wasn't, and I think it was a more of a communication barrier than an actual opinion clash per se.

The discussion diverted to ODIs once Kohli's ODI record was brought into the picture.

 

[h_hurricane]

I disagree with you. I would stick to my opinion that Sunil Gavaskar was a greater Test cricketer than Kapil Dev.

While there is merit in this statement, it does not contradict what I said. Kapil Dev was the best indian cricketer from 1978-92. Half of Gavaskar's career was outside this period.

On a completely unrelated note, using the same logic Hadlee is the undisputed GOAT fast bowler.

He certainly has a case though not undisputed.

 

[kyear2]

The Wisden list happened in 2000. Kallis barely played 3 years back then.

The Wisden list lost relevancy when Warne was elected as the 4th best player of all time. As great as he was, Warne was not the 4th greatest cricketer ever and certainly not in 2000.





Sobers scored 8000+ runs in 93 Tests.

Kallis scored 13000+ runs in 163 Tests and 11000+ runs in 300+ ODIs.





I completely accept it. Sobers is among my Top 5 batsman ever.





Despite the variety and talent, Sobers was a mediocre bowler.

While Kallis wasn’t as versatile, he was a better bowler. In the initial stages of his career, Kallis was bowling 90mph+ and was even faster than Allan Donald at times.





This is what irritates me the most.

Sobers vs Kallis isn’t like Bradman vs Smith or Bradman vs Sachin. Sobers

Sobers was a great player. No doubt about it. But to say even Kallis doesn’t even challenge Sobers is an ignorant statement.

Once you take off the nostalgia glasses, you will realise Kallis did everything Sobers did. Just as good. In more matches. And in more than one format.

Harsha Bhogle said it best “The past is often overrated and the present is often underrated”.

I stated than Kallis is under rated by many, I fully appreciate how great he was. I also acknowledge he was a much more effective bowler than Sobers. Sobers though also became much effective a bowler when he switched to medium pace completely. Ironic that he started his career as a spin bowling lower order batsman and that was his weakest skill. I would not agree though that Sobers was mediocre. Strike rates in that era tended to be much higher for bowlers.

The separation stands that while many, including yourself sees Sobers as a top 5 batsman, Kallis is seen as being part of a grouping in the second tier of batsmen.

Kallis is quite worthy of consideration in an ATG XI and I've even had teams where he was included, though alongside rather than in place of Sobers. Finally, I never said the gap between him and Kallis was as wide as Bradman to Smith, but one does exist.

And to call an argument ignorant is to exibit a level of arrogance that any argument that challenges yours is unworthy of consideration.

 

[Malcolm]

Hasn’t he surpassed Kapil and even Gavaskar?

Kohli is arguably the best ODI batsman of all time. Kohli is an ATG Test batsman. Kapil Dev was at best a good bowler and a decent batsman. At no point in his career Kapil was considered as the best.

In Tests, Kohli hasn’t surpassed Gavaskar. But if both formats are considered, Kohli has surpassed Gavaskar too. Kohli is the second best Test batsman of his generation and best ODI batsman.

I was speaking about tests. I don't subscribe to the concept of "greatness across formats".

 

[honestbharani]

People seem to mix natural talent with that they achieved.

Sobers had a batting average of 57 and a bowling average of 34.

Kallis had batting average of 55 and a bowling average of 32.


If someone says Sobers was better than Kallis that is fine with me.

But to say “Kallis can’t even challenge Sobers” or “Sobers was leagues ahead of Kallis” or “Sobers did much more than Kallis” is not only ignorant but plain wrong.

Kallis was not in the same league as Sobers as a test match batsman. Its really very simple. Sobers is rated by so many many in the cricketing community as the next best batsman since Bradman. I have not even heard of one person who rates Kallis there. If you want to make it a simple mathematical exercise, there is no point in even taking the argument further. Lets just say in cricket, stats without context are as useless as any random grouping of numbers can be.

 

[Logan]

I wouldn’t call Sobers as the second best batsman. But he was a Top Tier batsman.

As a bowler, I think Kallis is better than Sobers. While Sobers was a versatile bowler, Kallis was simply better.

Overall, I feel there isn’t much to separate them. Great batsman. Good bowlers. Great fielders.

Just said Kallis’ ODI career can’t be disregarded.

 

[Logan]

He certainly has a case though not undisputed.

Pretty much every great fast bowler bowled alongside great or at least very good bowlers.

Hadlee is a Top 3 fast bowler IMO.

If he bowled alongside a Garner or even Morkel or Warne or Pollock or Walsh applying pressure from the other end, Hadlee could have been even more successful.

 

[h_hurricane]

Sobers was let down as a bowler due to the period he bowled as a spinner, the mode in which he was pretty trash. That does not escape the fact that he was a pretty good medium pace bowler. At his peak, he was one of the best in the world on bowling alone. There was a phase in 1960s when he averaged 27 odd for a 8 year period. Only thing he needed to do to be rated higher as a bowler was to never bowl spin at all
Kallis never had anywhere near the same workload as a bowler. Not selling him short by any means. Rate him very highly as well.

 

[smash84]

Kallis was not in the same league as Sobers as a test match batsman. Its really very simple. Sobers is rated by so many many in the cricketing community as the next best batsman since Bradman. I have not even heard of one person who rates Kallis there. If you want to make it a simple mathematical exercise, there is no point in even taking the argument further. Lets just say in cricket, stats without context are as useless as any random grouping of numbers can be.

why exactly is kallis not in the same league though? Are there any good reasons to make that claim other than some pundits said that?

As LT here said "they'd be making songs about kallis if he played in the 60s". I don't see how kallis is not even close to Sobers.

 

[smash84]

Sobers was let down as a bowler due to the period he bowled as a spinner, the mode in which he was pretty trash. That does not escape the fact that he was a pretty good medium pace bowler. At his peak, he was one of the best in the world on bowling alone. There was a phase in 1960s when he averaged 27 odd for a 8 year period. Only thing he needed to do to be rated higher as a bowler was to never bowl spin at all
Kallis never had anywhere near the same workload as a bowler. Not selling him short by any means. Rate him very highly as well.

Do you have any numbers on sobers's bowling strike rate? Especially against different teams?

I don't think i saw as much variation with Kallis.

 

[kyear2]

why exactly is kallis not in the same league though? Are there any good reasons to make that claim other than some pundits said that?

As LT here said "they'd be making songs about kallis if he played in the 60s". I don't see how kallis is not even close to Sobers.

For his own era why was Kallis seen as behind Sachin, Lara, Ponting etc?

 

[h_hurricane]

Do you have any numbers on sobers's bowling strike rate? Especially against different teams?

I don't think i saw as much variation with Kallis.

This is what I have.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/16328923/garry-sobers-allrounder-no-other

You are right on the variation part. There was a series against Pakistan where he had a strike rate of 300 something lol. But I won't be surprised if he bowled spin trash in that series.

His variation as a bowler is a bit unnecessary in an ATG team but his overall record clearly undermines how good he was as a left arm medium pacer.

 

[Logan]

Source : Cricbuzz

Highest Ranking(Batting/Bowling) in Tests

Sobers : 1 and 4

Kallis : 1 and 6

Imran : 12 and 1

Kapil : 21 and 2

Botham : 3 and 1

Hadlee : 22 and 1

Miller : 9 and 1

Faulkner : 1 and 1


Highest Ranking(Batting/Bowling) in ODIs



Kallis : 1 and 15

Imran : 11 and 4

Kapil : 5 and 1

Hadlee : 5 and 1

Botham : 9 and 5

Klusener : 2 and 11

Jayasuriya : 1 and 22

Afridi : 22 and 6

 

[Logan]

For his own era why was Kallis seen as behind Sachin, Lara, Ponting etc?

A few cricket historians have said Ken Barrington was the best batsman of Sobers’ era. Barrington was regarded as the toughest batsman to dismiss.

Barrington’s style was similar to Kallis and often accused of being defensive and slow. He was often overlooked for the flair and style of Sobers’ batting.

P. S - I have never seen Sobers or Barrington play. Not saying one is better than the other. Just putting out a different(or minor)opinion that Barrington was the greatest run accumulator back then. I would love to know more about Ken Barrington.

 

[smash84]

This is what I have.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/16328923/garry-sobers-allrounder-no-other

You are right on the variation part. There was a series against Pakistan where he had a strike rate of 300 something lol. But I won't be surprised if he bowled spin trash in that series.

His variation as a bowler is a bit unnecessary in an ATG team but his overall record clearly undermines how good he was as a left arm medium pacer.

Kallis was a very good pace bowler. In the beginning he could be genuinely quick and move the ball at pace.

While may be willing to accept that Sobers may be better but i find it impossible to believe that kallis is not even in the ballpark. He clearly is very close to kalllis as an ATG.

Kallis definitely didn't have the intangibles though and the fact that sobers was seen as a more attacking batsman also helps his cause in most people's eyes but its certainly close between the two.

 

[akilana]

Sobers was let down as a bowler due to the period he bowled as a spinner, the mode in which he was pretty trash. That does not escape the fact that he was a pretty good medium pace bowler. At his peak, he was one of the best in the world on bowling alone. There was a phase in 1960s when he averaged 27 odd for a 8 year period. Only thing he needed to do to be rated higher as a bowler was to never bowl spin at all
Kallis never had anywhere near the same workload as a bowler. Not selling him short by any means. Rate him very highly as well.

Not the same workload but Kallis bowled more overs in tests than Sobers, Steyn, Wasim and many other ATG bowlers. He also played tons of ODIs.