The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Logan]

Social media has played a role in Dennis Lillee’s descent from legend to great bowler. Twenty years ago, every article I read about him used to praise him as the greatest/perfect fast bowler.

 

[Logan]

He's overrated by ****s who want to pretend he was as good as Sachin because they can't handle the fact that Sachin was GOAT.


Properly rated by the rest, I think he's generally rated in the tier below the very best anyway, which is fair. Ftr, I don't think his record against Australia is really any worse than Kallis/Sanga etc.

My exact feelings

 

[h_hurricane]

Social media has played a role in Dennis Lillee’s descent from legend to great bowler. Twenty years ago, every article I read about him used to praise him as the greatest/perfect fast bowler.

It is the other way around. Absence of social media in his playing days played a role in his ascent from favorable track bully to a legend.

 

[Logan]

Pre-90s, the English and Australians dominated the cricket scene. Apart from the West Indies team, very few individuals dared to raise their voice against them.

Sunil Gavaskar and Javed Miandad were the only two Asian cricketers who stood up to them. Of course, Miandad was more of a street fighter while Gavaskar was more polished and suave.

 

[Red]

Bradman might average 100 in India(unproven between), but Lillee would average 100 as well. Kind of cancels out.

Lillee not having enough of a sample is his own fault for not touring again. Zero sympathy. Guy would have sucked. Didn't have the stomach for it clearly.

Forget the fact that Lillee didn't tour alien conditions basically ever, his record against the best team of the era is hardly anything particularly great. He averaged 28 vs west indies in 12 tests, all but one in his own home conditions, and that's inflated by one 10fer on arguably the worst pitch of all time, the infamous MCG of 1981 on which dodda ganesh could've looked like Joel garner.

I don't think there's ever been a cricketer mythologized so much despite so many gaping holes in his statistical record. The guy made his career on knocking over Mike Brearley twice a week.

Social media has played a role in Dennis Lillee’s descent from legend to great bowler. Twenty years ago, every article I read about him used to praise him as the greatest/perfect fast bowler.

It is the other way around. Absence of social media in his playing days played a role in his ascent from favorable track bully to a legend.

The disrespect Lillee gets in these forums of late really shits me. I dont know whether you're taking the piss or not but Lillee was superb, absolute top tier.

 

[mr_mister]

Tbf it's the same arguments we use to not consider Jayawardene an ATG batsman despite some juicy overall career stats

When you break it down, Lillees record does have gaps

 

[stephen]

Lillee was a great. Not the GOAT, but certainly top tier. You don't take 67 wickets at under 27 in the hardest series ever played, against the best opposition ever assembled without being able to bowl.

For that matter, Ray Bright is dramatically underrated. Almost never gets talked about. Was the second last decent pre-Warne spinner Australia had (with Peter Taylor being the last). But took a lot of wickets at a pretty good average in WSC.

Lillee's not exactly top 10 but he's certainly up there and his ability is greater than his raw stats show.

Given the next great fast bowlers that Australia had were McDermott, who was his lesser despite being fantastic and McGrath, who for much of his career lived in Lillee's shadow it says a lot about how highly regarded he was.

Anyway, if you don't like Lillee, you can pick any combination of Lindwall, Miller and Davidson (and in India, Gillespie) to partner McGrath.

 

[jimmy101]

Yeah I feel that people are being a little harsh on Lillee here. Averaging 28 against the might Windies side of the 80's is actually pretty good in my book.

 

[ataraxia]

Spofforth as well. My Australian XI is:

VT Trumper (cs Simpson)
ML Hayden (cs Simpson)
DG Bradman (cs Chappell)
SPD Smith (cs Chappell)
RT Ponting (cs Chappell)
AR Border* - 5 (cs Chappell)
AC Gilchrist + (cs Healy)
AK Davidson - 3 (cs Miller)
RR Lindwall - 2 (cs Lillee)
SK Warne - 4 (cs O'Reilly)
GD McGrath - 1 (cs Lillee)

Miller IMO could average 52 in Tests with the bat with minimal bowling duties but he just barely misses out in favour of Border. Could possibly make it ahead of Lindwall and play as 3rd seamer who can bat also. Lillee is just below Lindwall in bowling I feel. Davidson is slightly above both for his incredible average in a slightly batting-friendly era. Hayden and Trumper would be a devastating combination. The 'cs's are concussion substitutes, which could be a cool idea in ATG XIs to do. Second XI would be:

RB Simpson (cs Lawry)
AR Morris (cs Lawry)
RN Harvey (cs McCabe)
GS Chappell (cs McCabe)
KR Miller - 5 (cs Noble)
SR Waugh (cs McCabe)
IA Healy + (cs Marsh)
CV Grimmett - 3 (cs Benaud)
WJ O'Reilly - 4 (cs MacGill)
DK Lillee - 1 (cs Gillespie)
FR Spofforth - 2 (cs Gillespie)

Both O'Reilly and Grimmett deserve to be included.

 

[kyear2]

Lillee was a great. Not the GOAT, but certainly top tier. You don't take 67 wickets at under 27 in the hardest series ever played, against the best opposition ever assembled without being able to bowl.

For that matter, Ray Bright is dramatically underrated. Almost never gets talked about. Was the second last decent pre-Warne spinner Australia had (with Peter Taylor being the last). But took a lot of wickets at a pretty good average in WSC.

Lillee's not exactly top 10 but he's certainly up there and his ability is greater than his raw stats show.

Given the next great fast bowlers that Australia had were McDermott, who was his lesser despite being fantastic and McGrath, who for much of his career lived in Lillee's shadow it says a lot about how highly regarded he was.

Anyway, if you don't like Lillee, you can pick any combination of Lindwall, Miller and Davidson (and in India, Gillespie) to partner McGrath.

Think this encapsulates it perfectly. Wasn't quite top 10, but up there in that next tier and definitely ATG.

 

[Logan]

Allan Donald had a sub-23 average and sub-50 SR against every country except the mighty Australia. Donald’s record in Asian pitches is exemplary.

Still most people don’t place Donald among the top tier of ATG bowlers. If someone like Donald whose record is on par with McGrath and Ambrose isn’t thought by many as a Top Tier fast bowler, why is Lillee given a free pass?

Why do players with better records like Garner and Donald never given the same respect or recognition that Lillee gets?

 

[jimmy101]

Lack of a moustache would be a determining factor.

 

[ataraxia]

Garner, Donald, and Davidson (IMO) are just outside the top tier (putting Barnes there to complement the obvious 6) along with Wasim. All three are underrated.

 

[silentstriker]

Indian XI to play at home:

Sehwag (4656 @ 54)
Gavaskar (5067 @50)
Pujara (3416 @60)
Tendulkar (7216 @53)
Kohli (3422 @67)
Laxman (3767@52)
Dhoni (2380 @46)
Kapil (2810 @37, 219 wickets @26)
Ashwin (1267 @ 29, 254 wickets @23)
Shami (60 wickets @20)
Srinath (108 wickets @27)

Bradman excluded, statistically India are definitely ahead in the batting, though the gap isn't as gigantic as one might think. Bowling-wise, the Australian side comes out ahead with 4 bowlers who average under 23. A big difference might come down to the relative performance of Gilchrist and Dhoni, and the batting ability of the respective tails.

It would be a very interesting matchup, that's for sure.

Dravid. Seriously tho. Dravid.

 

[Coronis]

Miller IMO could average 52 in Tests with the bat with minimal bowling duties but he just barely misses out in favour of Border. Could possibly make it ahead of Lindwall and play as 3rd seamer who can bat also. Lillee is just below Lindwall in bowling I feel. Davidson is slightly above both for his incredible average in a slightly batting-friendly era. Hayden and Trumper would be a devastating combination. The 'cs's are concussion substitutes, which could be a cool idea in ATG XIs to do. Second XI would be:

I like the idea of XI’s with concussion substitutes. On the other hand, the idea of Miller averaging 52.....

 

[bagapath]

Allan Donald had a sub-23 average and sub-50 SR against every country except the mighty Australia. Donald’s record in Asian pitches is exemplary.

Still most people don’t place Donald among the top tier of ATG bowlers. If someone like Donald whose record is on par with McGrath and Ambrose isn’t thought by many as a Top Tier fast bowler, why is Lillee given a free pass?

Why do players with better records like Garner and Donald never given the same respect or recognition that Lillee gets?

quite simply, match winning ability.

lillee had it. aplenty. the direction of the west indies australia clashes of that era hinged on him and viv richards. only when he pulled a muscle and stopped in the middle of his fifth over in the second innings did west indies manage to equal the series. otherwise, he was dictating the terms. in every innings, match and series his performance mattered. he is definitely a top 10 fast bowler if not top 5.


that match winning quality is the quality of legends. botham had it. ambrose had it. hadlee had it. marshall had it. that is what separates the legends from ATGs, which garner certainly was. but he didnt win as many matches singled handedly as the names mentioned here.

 

[bagapath]

Social media has played a role in Dennis Lillee’s descent from legend to great bowler. Twenty years ago, every article I read about him used to praise him as the greatest/perfect fast bowler.

social media has played a role in spreading dengue

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah Dennis Lillee has added mythology surrounding him due to his iconic look and personality

The comedy show Skithouse used his blueprint as basically the quintessential 'Australian fast bowler'

 

[jimmy101]

In all honesty calling Lillee's abilities a myth is pretty vacuous.

 

[h_hurricane]

quite simply, match winning ability.

lillee had it. aplenty. the direction of the west indies australia clashes of that era hinged on him and viv richards. only when he pulled a muscle and stopped in the middle of his fifth over in the second innings did west indies manage to equal the series. otherwise, he was dictating the terms. in every innings, match and series his performance mattered. he is definitely a top 10 fast bowler if not top 5.


that match winning quality is the quality of legends. botham had it. ambrose had it. hadlee had it. marshall had it. that is what separates the legends from ATGs, which garner certainly was. but he didnt win as many matches singled handedly as the names mentioned here.

Garner and Donald had as much match winning ability as Lillee if not more, but could do it anywhere.

In Garner's case, he had to share the spoils with 3 other ATG bowlers all the time. Averages in the teens overseas !

As far as Donald is concerned, he won many matches with amazing consistency.

Both these bowlers could do it in a wide range of conditions unlike Lillee who chickened out in Asia. Yes, Lillee did win a few matches against WI, all in his own country.

Botham shouldn't been in the discussion as far as ATG bowlers are concerned. Was merely a good bowler.