The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[marc71178]

Bradman might average 100 in India(unproven between), but Lillee would average 100 as well. Kind of cancels out.

Convenient how the unproven thing that goes against you is "might" but the one that is in your favour is "would".

 

[h_hurricane]

Convenient how the unproven thing that goes against you is "might" but the one that is in your favour is "would".

Because Lillee averaged 100+ in flat tracks in Pakistan. There is every possibility that he would average around the same in similar tracks in India.

Bradman did not even play in India or Pakistan.

Possibility of Lillee not doing well is bigger than Bradman doing as well as his career.

 

[stephen]

Still Stephen, there is every likelihood that the likes of Sehwag etc would rip Oreilly apart just like they've done to every other spinner (especially leg spinners). Which leaves the great McGrath, unproven Lillee one of Davidson, Lindwall or Miller. Yeah India are going to pile up the runs at home. Sorry to doubt about that in my mind. And it took a lone Harbajan Singh to bring the mighty peak Oz batting lineup to it's knees, add in Ashwin or Kumble or Jadeja or Gupte or Chandra etc + at home. Yeah good luck Australia or any other atg for that matter.

India will pile up runs at home, but then so will Australia against them. Even if Bradman scored a duck in every innings, Smith scored three tons in four tests in his last tour there. Hayden did ridiculous things to India in 2001 and the famed all time great batting that India had got beaten soundly in 2004.

India have not been great against spinners, even when they did have 4 of their all time great bats in the same side. They were always great against one type of spinner - slow turning wrist spinners (i.e. Warne and Murali). They collapsed many a time to rubbish part time finger spinners, because that style of spin goes really well in India. And it goes really well because of the pitches there. Frankly, the pitches are for the most part the cricketing equivalent of driving the nullarbor - slow, dry, flat and attritional.

Spinners who have done well in India in recent years:

Lyon - 34 wickets @31
Swann - 28 wickets @29
O'Keefe - 19 wickets @23
Tahir - 14 wickets @21
Krezja - 12 wickets @30
Boje - 7 wickets @16

Certainly that's more success than what touring spinners have had in Australia (only Chandana has taken >10 wickets at an average less than 33).

I will concede that a tour to India would shake up the Australian XI a little bit (probably replacing Warne with O'Reilly and if someone has picked Ponting, replacing him with pretty much anyone else). Still, Australia has 3 of the top 4 wicket takers in India over the last 20 years (Lyon, GIllespie and McGrath with Warne clocking in at 11 with 24 wickets @38), which means that they would have a fearsome attack for Indian conditions even if we just picked from the last two decades.

 

[stephen]

Hmmm Aus XI to play India in India:

Hayden (1027 @51)
Lawry (523 @44)
Bradman (DNP)
Smith (660 @60)
Waugh (521 @47)
Border (766 @51)
Gilchrist (342 @29)
Benaud (144 @14.4, 52 wickets @18)
Davidson (109@18, 30 wickets @16)
Gillespie (120 @12, 33 wickets @22)
McGrath (33 wickets @21)

The only unproven player in the country is Bradman, and it's fair to say that if he averaged half what his career average was, he'd be earning his keep. And if you absolutely couldn't have him in the side because he was unproven, you could easily pick Harvey (609 @55), Martyn (444 @56) or any of Clarke, Katich or Hussey, who averaged 40+ and scored a decent chunk of runs.

You could easily replace Benaud with Lyon if you wanted a proven performer from modern times. Hell, Warne isn't *that* bad of a pick either, having taken 34 wickets in the country.

This side would certainly be able to win a decent chunk of games against any Indian side.

 

[marc71178]

Because Lillee averaged 100+ in flat tracks in Pakistan. There is every possibility that he would average around the same in similar tracks in India.

Bradman did not even play in India or Pakistan.

Possibility of Lillee not doing well is bigger than Bradman doing as well as his career.

So the best batsman in history by a country mile won't do as well as his average whilst playing on the sort of flat wickets that mean that a whole 3 match series can be used to determine that a bowler with a huge amount of other success will fail miserably?

You're talking complete and utter shite.

 

[stephen]

Indian XI to play at home:

Sehwag (4656 @ 54)
Gavaskar (5067 @50)
Pujara (3416 @60)
Tendulkar (7216 @53)
Kohli (3422 @67)
Laxman (3767@52)
Dhoni (2380 @46)
Kapil (2810 @37, 219 wickets @26)
Ashwin (1267 @ 29, 254 wickets @23)
Shami (60 wickets @20)
Srinath (108 wickets @27)

Bradman excluded, statistically India are definitely ahead in the batting, though the gap isn't as gigantic as one might think. Bowling-wise, the Australian side comes out ahead with 4 bowlers who average under 23. A big difference might come down to the relative performance of Gilchrist and Dhoni, and the batting ability of the respective tails.

It would be a very interesting matchup, that's for sure.

 

[Slifer]

Hmmm Aus XI to play India in India:

Hayden (1027 @51)
Lawry (523 @44)
Bradman (DNP)
Smith (660 @60)
Waugh (521 @47)
Border (766 @51)
Gilchrist (342 @29)
Benaud (144 @14.4, 52 wickets @18)
Davidson (109@18, 30 wickets @16)
Gillespie (120 @12, 33 wickets @22)
McGrath (33 wickets @21)

The only unproven player in the country is Bradman, and it's fair to say that if he averaged half what his career average was, he'd be earning his keep. And if you absolutely couldn't have him in the side because he was unproven, you could easily pick Harvey (609 @55), Martyn (444 @56) or any of Clarke, Katich or Hussey, who averaged 40+ and scored a decent chunk of runs.

You could easily replace Benaud with Lyon if you wanted a proven performer from modern times. Hell, Warne isn't *that* bad of a pick either, having taken 34 wickets in the country.

This side would certainly be able to win a decent chunk of games against any Indian side.

Fair enough. Which is why I suggested ATG squads and not teams.

 

[Logan]

Is Rahul Dravid overrated? He has not been successful against the Top two teams of his era.

1. Dravid’s average against SA is 34. His average in SA is 29. He has scored just 2 centuries in 20 Tests.

2. Dravid’s average against Aus is 39. His average in Aus is 41. He has scored just 2 centuries in 34 Tests. One of his centuries was a supporting role to Laxman’s 281. Another was against an attack that had no McGrath and Warne.

 

[vcs]

No, he was awesome.

"Is X overrated?" is a fairly meaningless question to ask anyway. No one can quantify what is a fair rating.

 

[vcs]

Indian XI to play at home:

Sehwag (4656 @ 54)
Gavaskar (5067 @50)
Pujara (3416 @60)
Tendulkar (7216 @53)
Kohli (3422 @67)
Laxman (3767@52)
Dhoni (2380 @46)
Kapil (2810 @37, 219 wickets @26)
Ashwin (1267 @ 29, 254 wickets @23)
Shami (60 wickets @20)
Srinath (108 wickets @27)

Bradman excluded, statistically India are definitely ahead in the batting, though the gap isn't as gigantic as one might think. Bowling-wise, the Australian side comes out ahead with 4 bowlers who average under 23. A big difference might come down to the relative performance of Gilchrist and Dhoni, and the batting ability of the respective tails.

It would be a very interesting matchup, that's for sure.

Sample sizes are far bigger for India though.

And picking Kumble is personally a no-brainer for me, I don't care if he averaged more than Ashwin at home. This is of course in case I had to choose between them (if we get a wicket that looks very pacer friendly). There is no reason why we can't drop Srinath and play both Kumble and Ashwin.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He's overrated by ****s who want to pretend he was as good as Sachin because they can't handle the fact that Sachin was GOAT.
Properly rated by the rest, I think he's generally rated in the tier below the very best anyway, which is fair. Ftr, I don't think his record against Australia is really any worse than Kallis/Sanga etc.

 

[h_hurricane]

So the best batsman in history by a country mile won't do as well as his average whilst playing on the sort of flat wickets that mean that a whole 3 match series can be used to determine that a bowler with a huge amount of other success will fail miserably?

You're talking complete and utter shite.

You are being unnecessarily aggressive and over the top here. When did I say Bradman would not average 100 in India ? I said he might which is the best case I could put forward. He will bat at no.3 for a team to tour India(not just Australian) but all time as well.

Lillee did have huge amount of success in Aus, NZ and Eng.

He averages 90 else where. If ever there is one country where I would expect him to perform even poorer, it is India.

 

[OverratedSanity]

So the best batsman in history by a country mile won't do as well as his average whilst playing on the sort of flat wickets that mean that a whole 3 match series can be used to determine that a bowler with a huge amount of other success will fail miserably?

You're talking complete and utter shite.

Lillee not having enough of a sample is his own fault for not touring again. Zero sympathy. Guy would have sucked. Didn't have the stomach for it clearly.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Atleast subcontinental spinners like murali Ashwin Jadeja have the intestines to actually give it a go and get smashed in Australia /or get dropped. Lillee gets to chicken out and go "Muh sample size was small I would've averaged 20 if I'd played more on the most difficult pitches for pace bowlers". Ok. Absolute rubbish. Plays 63% of his matches at home which is an absurd percentage, never tours the best side of the era, barely ever tours in conditions known to be difficult for quick bowlers yet is considered some ATG. The double standards are laughable.

Siddle is better.

 

[vcs]

Sample sizes are far bigger for India though.

And picking Kumble is personally a no-brainer for me, I don't care if he averaged more than Ashwin at home. This is of course in case I had to choose between them (if we get a wicket that looks very pacer friendly). There is no reason why we can't drop Srinath and play both Kumble and Ashwin.

With Kapil and Ashwin adding depth to the batting, I would be tempted to drop Pujara, push Kohli up to 3, and play five bowlers. Bring in Zaheer instead of Srinath for the left-arm variety and the reverse swing.

Sehwag
Gavaskar
Kohli
Tendulkar
Laxman
Dhoni
Kapil
Ashwin
Kumble
Shami
Zaheer

 

[vcs]

Atleast subcontinental spinners like murali Ashwin Jadeja have the intestines to actually give it a go and get smashed in Australia /or get dropped. Lillee gets to chicken out and go "Muh sample size was small I would've averaged 20 if I'd played more on the most difficult pitches for pace bowlers". Ok. Absolute rubbish. Plays 63% of his matches at home which is an absurd percentage, never tours the best side of the era, barely ever tours in conditions known to be difficult for quick bowlers yet is considered some ATG. The double standards are laughable.

Siddle is better.

Why didn't he play much in WI? You'd have thought he'd like the pitches there.

 

[h_hurricane]

And in those 63% matches, there would also be some one to chant "Lillee,Lillee kill kill kill". Fine homely food to go with it. Expose him to air pollution in Delhi, he would bowl with an oxygen mask and average 1000. Fair weather player.

 

[h_hurricane]

Why didn't he play much in WI? You'd have thought he'd like the pitches there.

Amazing skill to get injured every time he played in alien conditions or a tough opposition.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Forget the fact that Lillee didn't tour alien conditions basically ever, his record against the best team of the era is hardly anything particularly great. He averaged 28 vs west indies in 12 tests, all but one in his own home conditions, and that's inflated by one 10fer on arguably the worst pitch of all time, the infamous MCG of 1981 on which dodda ganesh could've looked like Joel garner.

I don't think there's ever been a cricketer mythologized so much despite so many gaping holes in his statistical record. The guy made his career on knocking over Mike Brearley twice a week.

 

[h_hurricane]

Indian XI to play at home:

Sehwag (4656 @ 54)
Gavaskar (5067 @50)
Pujara (3416 @60)
Tendulkar (7216 @53)
Kohli (3422 @67)
Laxman (3767@52)
Dhoni (2380 @46)
Kapil (2810 @37, 219 wickets @26)
Ashwin (1267 @ 29, 254 wickets @23)
Shami (60 wickets @20)
Srinath (108 wickets @27)

Bradman excluded, statistically India are definitely ahead in the batting, though the gap isn't as gigantic as one might think. Bowling-wise, the Australian side comes out ahead with 4 bowlers who average under 23. A big difference might come down to the relative performance of Gilchrist and Dhoni, and the batting ability of the respective tails.

It would be a very interesting matchup, that's for sure.

For an apple to apple comparison, you should be picking an Indian team based on their performance against Australia at home, not just overall against all teams. The quartet of Kapil, Ashwin, Jadeja and Umesh have taken 150 wickets against Australia in India at 22. Not to speak of their superior batting as well. None of them are prehistoric either.