The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[AndrewB]

Red Hill made a point re choosing a Garner or Akram because they were accostomed to coming in 1st change and better old ball bowlers and more adept at taking lower order wickets.

FWIW Akram only bowled as a change bowler in 3 Tests (to be fair, he did average 14). Best change (pace) bowlers (by average) in 25+ innings are:

20.36: Pat Cummins (80 wickets)
21.69: Joel Garner (132)
21.89: Shaun Pollock (59)
22.75: Stuart Clark (66)
23.07: Michael Holding (78)
23.26: Angus Fraser (71)
23.75: Mike Hendrick (45)
23.80: Malcolm Marshall (113)
24.66: Mohammed Shami (77)
25.14: Kagiso Rabada (85)
25.63: Dominic Cork (63)
25.84: Ian Botham (177)
26.48: Merv Hughes (99)
26.51: Courtney Walsh (192)
26.71: Jason Gillespie (46)

Just for comparison, best opening bowlers (since WW1) are:

18.86: Mohammad Abbas (66)
19.25: Alan Davidson (170)
19.48: Colin Croft (74)
19.71: Malcolm Marshall (263)
20.21: Kagiso Rabada (98)
20.22: Joel Garner (127)
20.77: Shane Bond (86)
20.83: Ian Bishop (108)
20.91: Bill Bowes (62)
21.10: Neil Adcock (104)
21.15: Curtly Ambrose (376)
21.34: Glen McGrath (541)
21.57: Fred Trueman (307)
21.84: Vernon Philander (214)
21.90: Imran Khan (347)

 

[kyear2]

FWIW Akram only bowled as a change bowler in 3 Tests (to be fair, he did average 14). Best change (pace) bowlers (by average) in 25+ innings are:

20.36: Pat Cummins (80 wickets)
21.69: Joel Garner (132)
21.89: Shaun Pollock (59)
22.75: Stuart Clark (66)
23.07: Michael Holding (78)
23.26: Angus Fraser (71)
23.75: Mike Hendrick (45)
23.80: Malcolm Marshall (113)
24.66: Mohammed Shami (77)
25.14: Kagiso Rabada (85)
25.63: Dominic Cork (63)
25.84: Ian Botham (177)
26.48: Merv Hughes (99)
26.51: Courtney Walsh (192)
26.71: Jason Gillespie (46)

Just for comparison, best opening bowlers (since WW1) are:

18.86: Mohammad Abbas (66)
19.25: Alan Davidson (170)
19.48: Colin Croft (74)
19.71: Malcolm Marshall (263)
20.21: Kagiso Rabada (98)
20.22: Joel Garner (127)
20.77: Shane Bond (86)
20.83: Ian Bishop (108)
20.91: Bill Bowes (62)
21.10: Neil Adcock (104)
21.15: Curtly Ambrose (376)
21.34: Glen McGrath (541)
21.57: Fred Trueman (307)
21.84: Vernon Philander (214)
21.90: Imran Khan (347)

Very interesting numbers all round.

Makes me then ask why he had just a relatively high percentage of lower order wickets.

 

[honestbharani]

I wonder how it will work out for Cummins. For a number of the folks on the first change list, you would assume they will move up to take the new ball in a while. With Cummins though, there is a distinct possibility he remains a mostly first change bowler for a good number of years to come.

 

[Prince EWS]

I wonder how it will work out for Cummins. For a number of the folks on the first change list, you would assume they will move up to take the new ball in a while. With Cummins though, there is a distinct possibility he remains a mostly first change bowler for a good number of years to come.

Based on what happened in the last couple of Shield games, it seems like Cummins may open and Starc will bowl first change in the Tests this summer.

Which is silly, but there you go.

 

[kyear2]

FWIW Akram only bowled as a change bowler in 3 Tests (to be fair, he did average 14). Best change (pace) bowlers (by average) in 25+ innings are:

20.36: Pat Cummins (80 wickets)
21.69: Joel Garner (132)
21.89: Shaun Pollock (59)
22.75: Stuart Clark (66)
23.07: Michael Holding (78)
23.26: Angus Fraser (71)
23.75: Mike Hendrick (45)
23.80: Malcolm Marshall (113)
24.66: Mohammed Shami (77)
25.14: Kagiso Rabada (85)
25.63: Dominic Cork (63)
25.84: Ian Botham (177)
26.48: Merv Hughes (99)
26.51: Courtney Walsh (192)
26.71: Jason Gillespie (46)

Just for comparison, best opening bowlers (since WW1) are:

18.86: Mohammad Abbas (66)
19.25: Alan Davidson (170)
19.48: Colin Croft (74)
19.71: Malcolm Marshall (263)
20.21: Kagiso Rabada (98)
20.22: Joel Garner (127)
20.77: Shane Bond (86)
20.83: Ian Bishop (108)
20.91: Bill Bowes (62)
21.10: Neil Adcock (104)
21.15: Curtly Ambrose (376)
21.34: Glen McGrath (541)
21.57: Fred Trueman (307)
21.84: Vernon Philander (214)
21.90: Imran Khan (347)

Is this even a ATG XI to actually play a game viable attack?

Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Garner

 

[Red]

FWIW Akram only bowled as a change bowler in 3 Tests (to be fair, he did average 14). Best change (pace) bowlers (by average) in 25+ innings are:

20.36: Pat Cummins (80 wickets)
21.69: Joel Garner (132)
21.89: Shaun Pollock (59)
22.75: Stuart Clark (66)
23.07: Michael Holding (78)
23.26: Angus Fraser (71)
23.75: Mike Hendrick (45)
23.80: Malcolm Marshall (113)
24.66: Mohammed Shami (77)
25.14: Kagiso Rabada (85)
25.63: Dominic Cork (63)
25.84: Ian Botham (177)
26.48: Merv Hughes (99)
26.51: Courtney Walsh (192)
26.71: Jason Gillespie (46)

Just for comparison, best opening bowlers (since WW1) are:

18.86: Mohammad Abbas (66)
19.25: Alan Davidson (170)
19.48: Colin Croft (74)
19.71: Malcolm Marshall (263)
20.21: Kagiso Rabada (98)
20.22: Joel Garner (127)
20.77: Shane Bond (86)
20.83: Ian Bishop (108)
20.91: Bill Bowes (62)
21.10: Neil Adcock (104)
21.15: Curtly Ambrose (376)
21.34: Glen McGrath (541)
21.57: Fred Trueman (307)
21.84: Vernon Philander (214)
21.90: Imran Khan (347)

I didn't say 1st change, Kyear said that, fwiw. I said adept at getting the tail out and bowling with the older ball.

 

[Red]

Based on what happened in the last couple of Shield games, it seems like Cummins may open and Starc will bowl first change in the Tests this summer.

Which is silly, but there you go.

Why do you think it's silly, I reckon it makes perfect sense.

 

[Red]

Couldn't Hammond as a 5th bowler be nearly as viable as Sobers - especially if we consider you'd want them to be bowling as little as possible in this hypothetical match(why give the opposition anything less than ATG bowlers to face tbh, bowlers who are anything less could release pressure).

Both have a near equal case as batsmen to justify selection. One thing in Sobers favour was that he played so much of his career at 6 so he'd slot nicely there where as with Hammond he would likely be batting out of position - though your 5 would basically always be a batsman out of position unless you decide Steve Waugh is worthy due to him being the arguable best ever number 5

Food for thought

Sobers was a better batsman than Hammond by most accounts I've read, better equipped to deal with all bowling in all conditions than Hammond was.

Also, fwiw, Viv spent more time at #5 than he did in any other position in tests.

 

[kyear2]

I didn't say 1st change, Kyear said that, fwiw. I said adept at getting the tail out and bowling with the older ball.

Apologies, I obviously misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[mr_mister]

Sobers was a better batsman than Hammond by most accounts I've read, better equipped to deal with all bowling in all conditions than Hammond was.

Also, fwiw, Viv spent more time at #5 than he did in any other position in tests.

Oh that surprises me. Obviously Viv > Waugh overall but one hit 24 tons @ 56 batting 5 and one hit 6 tons @ 47 batting 5

Viv I guess was down there after his peak while Waugh's move there was perfectly lined up with his so I think it's fair to say he was the most successful 5, but with a bit of luck involved?

 

[Red]

Oh that surprises me. Obviously Viv > Waugh overall but one hit 24 tons @ 56 batting 5 and one hit 6 tons @ 47 batting 5

Viv I guess was down there after his peak while Waugh's move there was perfectly lined up with his so I think it's fair to say he was the most successful 5, but with a bit of luck involved?

When Richards first came into the team he batted at 4 or 5 after Kallicharan and/or Rowe. From 76-83/4 he batted at 3 and was at his best. Once Richie Richardson came into the team Viv moved back down to mostly 5, batting behind Hooper and Richardson.

 

[ataraxia]

Clive Lloyd though?

 

[mr_mister]

Lloyd averaged 46 down there. Are we just gonna name random good players who batted 5

We all acknowledge batting wise Waugh's career after about 93 was pretty damn special after being patchy before it. Well due to Border retiring (I think?) that's when he became a full time 5 and that's when he started killing it

Actually Chanderpaul I'd say has the closet argument to Waugh as the most successful 5, similar amount of runs there at a similar average, but faced way easier bowlers for the majority of his career - in fact in the 90s when he was facing the ATGs everywhere he was mainly a 3/4

 

[ataraxia]

Lloyd was in response to RH not mentioning him. On this topic Laxman also jumps to mind, as do Clarke and Border.

 

[bagapath]

Is this even a ATG XI to actually play a game viable attack?

Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Garner

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/60597-bagapath-s-greatest-xi.html

 

[bagapath]

1. It's not a ATG team per say, as I said if I were to choose a team to actually take the field (hence Barry Richards over Hobbs)

2. Neither of them are in my top 8 fast bowlers and hence not quite imho not in the same tier as my very top guys.

3. Red Hill made a point re choosing a Garner or Akram because they were accostomed to coming in 1st change and better old ball bowlers and more adept at taking lower order wickets.

So again for a normal ATG team neither would make it, neither would Barry Richards.

which Akram is this?

Wasim Akram was a bonafide new ball bowler and retired with the distinction of having opened the bowling more than anyone else in history, barring kapil dev IIRC

 

[Red]

Lloyd was in response to RH not mentioning him. On this topic Laxman also jumps to mind, as do Clarke and Border.

I'm not sure where or why I was meant to mention Lloyd

 

[honestbharani]

Based on what happened in the last couple of Shield games, it seems like Cummins may open and Starc will bowl first change in the Tests this summer.

Which is silly, but there you go.

Or its some kind of 4D chess where he bowls with the new ball for NSW but first change for Aus.

But to be serious, I am not sure if the Shield games are being played with the Dukes. There was talk around that Shield games maybe played with the Dukes, in which case it makes sense that you can afford to bring in Starc later coz the ball will still swing for him. But with the kookaburra, his best bet is to bowl with the new ball obviously.

 

[ankitj]

Anyone thinks Shami has done enough to claim a place in India ATG XI (assuming we are still waiting on Bumrah to play few more years)? I do think Shami has overtaken Zaheer and Srinath. Averages under 27. Wow!

 

[CricAddict]

Anyone thinks Shami has done enough to claim a place in India ATG XI (assuming we are still waiting on Bumrah to play few more years)? I do think Shami has overtaken Zaheer and Srinath. Averages under 27. Wow!

Yes, Bumrah and Shami both are better than Zaheer and Srinath. Both have done enough to claim their place in the ATG XI alongside Kapil.